Is the Newbery box here? The Patrick Collection

[timerotor]

I can confirm that photographic evidence shows clearly that it may not be the Newbery Box, but it most certainly is the Liverpool Gardens show Box as Tony posted.

But does this mean it's NOT the Newbery (after years of bashing about, redecoration and re fitting it could have ended up looking like this... unless we know for SURE that it's a different box. Did we really expect to see what we all want to see? (just a thought.)
End of trial? (sigh)
MBH

[watcher]

Yep,that looks like a match to me!

I'd say pretty much 100% its the Gardens show box lol

[superrichi1a]

The man who bought the box during the auction in the 80s was TV legend Derek Jameson... so is he the uncle in question?

[Dalekoracle]

No, the Children in Need auction was run through BBC Radio 2 on Derek Jamesons show.

It was sold for £3,100

It was won by Mr Alexander Patrick, a collector from Kings Norton, Birmingham, who put the box into his motor museum.

You can see the article here:

http://cuttingsarchive.org/index.php/Dr_Who_sells_Tardis_to_help_the_children

[superrichi1a]

Ah brilliant, clearly I was misinformed! Well frankly I am shocked to have this hit so close to home, King's Norton is already on my commute!

[fivefingeredstyre]

Well done all for clearing that one up.

Is it me, or is the Pertwee Mannequin actually terrifying? 

[galacticprobe]

However, I suspect it's probably just a new series one...

Well, this one is certainly not a New Series TARDIS; she's much more rectangular in her panels, windows, and overall appearance than any New Series box thus far.

I can confirm that photographic evidence shows clearly that... it most certainly is the Liverpool Gardens show Box as Tony posted.

I agree with that, completely.

But does this mean it's NOT the Newbery (after years of bashing about, redecoration and re fitting it could have ended up looking like this... unless we know for SURE that it's a different box. (just a thought.)
End of trial? (sigh)

True, especially about the things done to the Newbery, which I believe (and Tony will correct me if I'm wrong) started with refitting the Newbery to look like the Yardley-Jones prop so they had two boxes for use when they filmed "Logopolis". I think Tony knows more about all the refitting the Newbery went through between "Logopolis" and the rest of the Classic Series as they continued using both Yardley-Jones box(es) and the Newbery to the bitter end.

It is interesting, though, that the photo shows this box to have the lamp-base box on the roof, and the non-beveled black base that were Newbery characteristics. (If it really is the Newbery, I wonder if those details were replaced when the Classic Series stopped, or if it was restored to close to its original appearance for the auction. )

Dino.

[timerotor]

Well done all for clearing that one up.

Is it me, or is the Pertwee Mannequin actually terrifying?

I'm not sure it is cleared up, yet... LOL and yes the mannequin is just horrific.  

I can confirm that photographic evidence shows clearly that... it most certainly is the Liverpool Gardens show Box as Tony posted.

[/quote]
It is interesting, though, that the photo shows this box to have the lamp-base box on the roof, and the non-beveled black base that were Newbery characteristics. (If it really is the Newbery, I wonder if those details were replaced when the Classic Series stopped, or if it was restored to close to its original appearance for the auction. )
I agree with that, completely.
Dino.
[/quote]
Glad you and Watcher agree :-)

I am in my heart in doubt over this.
It's because of my experience with Scenery & Props (The classic series Police Boxes in particular) that makes me believe it would be foolishly arrogant to write this Patrick Collection Box off as a replica or a different Box - unless there is irrefutable proof. It could be Barry Newbery's box.
If you look at it's proportions, and construction -they match up.
If you can stretch your imagination to think it may have been altered so much that it's beyond our instant recognition...

1.the sign boxes have been replaced, and repositioned very high up (which immediately distorts the proportions we associate with Newbery's deign.

2. it has been stripped completely, removing ALL texturing, paint and then been filled and sanded (hiding previously placed locks and dings, hook holes & similar identifying marks).

3.The doors have been re-hung & hinged (not in the same position).

4. It's roof has yet again been replaced.

5. the base has been replaced or trimmed.

6. All the frosted & yellowed, pebbleglass windows have gone and the bars replaced with rounded thicker dividing bars.

7. The paint - (original is all gone as mentioned above in point 2). Now, it's just one gloss coat of standard Navy Blue.

If you were to renovate this prop as it is now replicating Newbery parts & all of these things, get the correct windows back in and paint it with the Tom Baker era blue, door pull sign, roof stacks, replace the signs lower and re work the roof, it would look EXACT to Barry Newbery's box.

I would give my left arm to carry out this work and make it look as it did in Tom Baker's era, even if it is 'just' a BBC replica - but then i ask why would they build it? If the Newbery was in storage at the BBC until The Liverpool Garden Show, and this Children in Need auction, it would have been a wreck & subject to a complete over haul, work carried out by a carpenter not interested or instructed to make it screen matchable -but to make it presentable and sound for display & auction.
For example just look at the state the TYJ 2 box was in when I took it to London in 2011. Practically unrecognisable to its on screen appearance.

These are just my thoughts on the matter (If you half close your eyes and look at some of the pics below YOU SEE IT

it's possible. isn't it?

MBH




three steps

[Scarfwearer]

I'm skeptical:



I straightened up the image with the perspective transform tool in GIMP.
It looks to me like the doors are similar, but not a perfect match.

The liverpool gardens box appears to have windows that are taller than than the phone panel.
The rails are mitred thinner
The mitreing is deeper
The top rail over the window is relatively taller.
Clearly the window frames and phone panel could have been replaced, but the geometry of the doors looks to me to be irreconcilably different.
What with the extra top step, replaced top signs, narrow/absent door shims and other differences, I don't think this is the Newbery.

Am I certain of this? No...

[tony farrell]

Don't forget too that the Newbery Box got completely new doors for Castrovalva. When it last appeared at Longleat in 1983 it still had these new doors (see the photos I posted earlier in this topic). At Longleat, it also sported a TY-J sign-box on its left-hand side as you look at it.

Apart from the lamp and a lick of paint, the box on display at the Patrick Collection is identical to the one which was created for the Liverpool Garden Festival in 1984.

Taking all the evidence together, the Patrick Collection Box isn't the Newbery box at all - rather it is the "Liverpool Box" which was created by the then BBC Enterprises specifically for the Garden Festival!

T

[timerotor]

Thanks for the feedback and added images Scarfwearer,
I'm not sure that photos -especially the ones we have here are ever going to match up as they're taken at different angles and it's just never going to align exactly that way.



Thanks for the feedback Tony...

Ok, so this is what I'm asking does anyone KNOW for sure, (maybe has documentation) that this box was a completely separate creation,  especially for this Liverpool show.
That's all that's needed to define this.

[madgaz]

Is it possible that maybe the confusion is (maybe) in part to discarded parts of the Newbery box being used in the construction?

If they used new doors/signboxes when they carried out the refurb-maybe the cast-offs were recycled into yet another box?

Just speculation of course; this really has got me intrigued one way or another 

[KIT-KAT]

Overly im not sure, if it isn't the newberry, bits of it are very close! Besides, repair work and alters could have distorted it's dimensions a little?

[Volpone]

All dimensions in space are relative over time.

[andrewkent]

A good test would be to have a photograph of the side of the Patrick / Liverpool box, to compare to the Newberry, as it's less likely to have been changed structurally.