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Mike Verta's s18 TY-J

Started by mverta, Nov 14, 2018, 12:03 am

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Rassilons Rod

Fascinating video,  Mike!

I wonder if the Blu-Ray will she'd any more light,  or just confuse things further  :D
In the cities in the streets there's a tension you can feel,
The breaking strain is fast approaching, guns and riots.
Politicians gamble and lie to save their skins,
And the press get fed the scapegoats,
Public Enema Number One.

mverta

Feb 03, 2019, 09:41 am #91 Last Edit: Feb 03, 2019, 09:41 am by mverta
There are no higher-res sources for the Blu-Ray than for the DVD's - the original was shot at SD (720x***) - there's no more information or data to get than we've seen. You might be able to clean up some chroma noise, and there are some sharpening tricks which actually hide detail but which trick the the average viewer into thinking it's sharper.  But it won't be higher-resolution, just bigger, and perhaps a touch cleaner, though artificially so.  All of this with the exception of the filmed outdoor shots, which could be rescanned at 4K assuming the negatives survived, but then you'd have a horrible mismatch of resolutions which would be double-plus ungood.

They're up-resing for the Blu-Ray, and they're not using the best software tool to do it, either.  I know this because I use that particular software and know the company owner well (he supported my Star Wars 77 4K restoration), and he told me it wasn't used.  Shame, really, because if you're going to do something, do it right, I say. But it'll be convenient to have them on single discs, I suppose.

mverta

Feb 03, 2019, 10:41 am #92 Last Edit: Feb 03, 2019, 10:43 am by mverta
Through some additional analysis I have been able to determine that the original s18 signs were thinner than 1/8" inch - closer to 1/16".

Tonight I did some tests - still with 1/8" 2447 matte/glossy acrylic, where I put a stencil on the inside/matte surface and physically painted the blue fill.  Seen from the outer/glossy side, the look clearly isn't right because of the glossiness.  Neither side can be glossy.  

PB_Test_2_1a.jpg

So I took some sandpaper - first 320 then 800 to the glossy side and got this:

PB_Test_2_2a.jpg
PB_Test_2_3a.jpg

This is the closest look I've seen so far.  I think cutting the thickness in half will sharpen up the letters.   Reviewing my materials for the 10,00th time, I've learned again why I decided to go this route for my CG one.  It really looks like it's inside mounted in most shots where there's a surface reflection on it.

Today I also purchased some clear urethane resin, which I'm going to be using to make my own substrate.  They didn't use acrylic 2447 for the original - the plans specify a "milky fibreglass," which doesn't help much.  But the urethane resin I've chosen isn't naturally as glossy as acrylic; in fact, it's naturally a lot like my sanded version here, and I can add as much or little white pigment to it as I want to precisely control how milky it is.  To date, all the work I've done with resins and silicones have been mixed by volume, and this stuff needs an extremely accurate gram scale, so I have to wait for that to arrive, but then I'll be repeating this test with a 1/16" thick custom "milky" urethane.

fivefingeredstyre

Feb 03, 2019, 10:43 am #93 Last Edit: Feb 03, 2019, 10:48 am by fivefingeredstyre
Quote from: mverta on Feb 03, 2019, 09:41 am
There are no higher-res sources for the Blu-Ray than for the DVD's - the original was shot at SD (720x***) - there's no more information or data to get than we've seen. You might be able to clean up some chroma noise, and there are some sharpening tricks which actually hide detail but which trick the the average viewer into thinking it's sharper.  But it won't be higher-resolution, just bigger, and perhaps a touch cleaner, though artificially so.  All of this with the exception of the filmed outdoor shots, which could be rescanned at 4K assuming the negatives survived, but then you'd have a horrible mismatch of resolutions which would be double-plus ungood.

They're up-resing for the Blu-Ray, and they're not using the best software tool to do it, either.  I know this because I use that particular software and know the company owner well (he supported my Star Wars 77 4K restoration), and he told me it wasn't used.  Shame, really, because if you're going to do something, do it right, I say. But it'll be convenient to have them on single discs, I suppose.
Where possible, the film inserts are taken from the original source and should be HD, even if the remaining footage isn't.

As far as I'm aware the only Season 18 Film insert that exists just happens to be the never ending pan for the opening of Leisure Hive Part 1, which contains the very first shot of the TJY! This could be of some use to you...

Rassilons Rod

Yeah, I'm aware there's not much you can do with archive material created on video tape, but I was just thinking from the point that DVD doesn't have the capacity to display the studio tapes at full quality (though of course, DVD is still markedly better than vhs was).

Blu-Ray should at least hold the quality of the studio tapes,  despite not improving it. At least that's my understanding.  :)

Quote from: mverta on Feb 03, 2019, 09:41 am
There are no higher-res sources for the Blu-Ray than for the DVD's - the original was shot at SD (720x***) - there's no more information or data to get than we've seen. You might be able to clean up some chroma noise, and there are some sharpening tricks which actually hide detail but which trick the the average viewer into thinking it's sharper.  But it won't be higher-resolution, just bigger, and perhaps a touch cleaner, though artificially so.  All of this with the exception of the filmed outdoor shots, which could be rescanned at 4K assuming the negatives survived, but then you'd have a horrible mismatch of resolutions which would be double-plus ungood.

They're up-resing for the Blu-Ray, and they're not using the best software tool to do it, either.  I know this because I use that particular software and know the company owner well (he supported my Star Wars 77 4K restoration), and he told me it wasn't used.  Shame, really, because if you're going to do something, do it right, I say. But it'll be convenient to have them on single discs, I suppose.
In the cities in the streets there's a tension you can feel,
The breaking strain is fast approaching, guns and riots.
Politicians gamble and lie to save their skins,
And the press get fed the scapegoats,
Public Enema Number One.

Rassilons Rod

I'm really looking forward to the Season 18 set. Sadly,  the film for Sontaran Experiment is long gone and the only source for that on the Season 12 set is the studio tapes.

Quote from: fivefingeredstyre on Feb 03, 2019, 10:43 am
Quote from: mverta on Feb 03, 2019, 09:41 am
There are no higher-res sources for the Blu-Ray than for the DVD's - the original was shot at SD (720x***) - there's no more information or data to get than we've seen. You might be able to clean up some chroma noise, and there are some sharpening tricks which actually hide detail but which trick the the average viewer into thinking it's sharper.  But it won't be higher-resolution, just bigger, and perhaps a touch cleaner, though artificially so.  All of this with the exception of the filmed outdoor shots, which could be rescanned at 4K assuming the negatives survived, but then you'd have a horrible mismatch of resolutions which would be double-plus ungood.

They're up-resing for the Blu-Ray, and they're not using the best software tool to do it, either.  I know this because I use that particular software and know the company owner well (he supported my Star Wars 77 4K restoration), and he told me it wasn't used.  Shame, really, because if you're going to do something, do it right, I say. But it'll be convenient to have them on single discs, I suppose.
Where possible, the film inserts are taken from the original source and should be HD, even if the remaining footage isn't.

As far as I'm aware the only Season 18 Film insert that exists just happens to be the never ending pan for the opening of Leisure Hive Part 1, which contains the very first shot of the TJY! This could be of some use to you...
In the cities in the streets there's a tension you can feel,
The breaking strain is fast approaching, guns and riots.
Politicians gamble and lie to save their skins,
And the press get fed the scapegoats,
Public Enema Number One.

mverta

Feb 03, 2019, 10:59 am #96 Last Edit: Feb 03, 2019, 11:58 am by mverta
Quote from: rassilonsrod on Feb 03, 2019, 10:48 am
Yeah, I'm aware there's not much you can do with archive material created on video tape, but I was just thinking from the point that DVD doesn't have the capacity to display the studio tapes at full quality (though of course, DVD is still markedly better than vhs was).


The NTSC Rec.601 spec we used for DVDs should more than cover anything on the studio tape masters.  The tape masters didn't contain any additional color depth or resolution (that I'm aware of, anyway), and in fact, DVDs were/are capable of a sort of anamorphic hybrid beyond what SD cameras were capturing.  We used that flag for some film transfers before and during the transition from 4:3 to 16:9.


***UPDATE: Doing a few hours of research, it looks like Doctor Who s18 was shot on the EMI 2001 cameras - workhorses at the BBC for a long time - and it was limited to 525/625 lines in the vertical which could be translated to DVD.  It also had an interesting, but limited color science, so I'm not seeing anything that might have escaped earlier transfers.  We should hopefully see less "denoising" temporal artifacts/smearing, and less chroma noise.  Reason enough, I suppose, to shell out!

Rassilons Rod

Feb 03, 2019, 05:32 pm #97 Last Edit: Feb 03, 2019, 05:33 pm by rassilonsrod
You clearly know more about the technical aspects than I do.  :) It was the Restoration Team's Steve Roberts who was telling me that the BluRays should see some improvement.

Certainly looking at the Season 12 BluRay, I'm feeling that there's certainly some improvement over the DVDs :)

Quote from: mverta on Feb 03, 2019, 10:59 am
Quote from: rassilonsrod on Feb 03, 2019, 10:48 am
Yeah, I'm aware there's not much you can do with archive material created on video tape, but I was just thinking from the point that DVD doesn't have the capacity to display the studio tapes at full quality (though of course, DVD is still markedly better than vhs was).


The NTSC Rec.601 spec we used for DVDs should more than cover anything on the studio tape masters.  The tape masters didn't contain any additional color depth or resolution (that I'm aware of, anyway), and in fact, DVDs were/are capable of a sort of anamorphic hybrid beyond what SD cameras were capturing.  We used that flag for some film transfers before and during the transition from 4:3 to 16:9.


***UPDATE: Doing a few hours of research, it looks like Doctor Who s18 was shot on the EMI 2001 cameras - workhorses at the BBC for a long time - and it was limited to 525/625 lines in the vertical which could be translated to DVD.  It also had an interesting, but limited color science, so I'm not seeing anything that might have escaped earlier transfers.  We should hopefully see less "denoising" temporal artifacts/smearing, and less chroma noise.  Reason enough, I suppose, to shell out!
In the cities in the streets there's a tension you can feel,
The breaking strain is fast approaching, guns and riots.
Politicians gamble and lie to save their skins,
And the press get fed the scapegoats,
Public Enema Number One.

ionsith

  The asymmetry of the panels really pops out on the shot where there light is hitting the TARDIS door. This is an utterly fascinating journey you're taking us on, Mike. If it weren't for that one shot in Hammersmith park with the cricket ball, do you think you'd still have been able to get the same degree of accuracy with your measurements using all the other reference material you have? I am still stunned as to how you pulled that off!

mverta

Feb 04, 2019, 03:24 pm #99 Last Edit: Feb 04, 2019, 03:51 pm by mverta
Quote from: ionsith on Feb 04, 2019, 11:50 amIf it weren't for that one shot in Hammersmith park with the cricket ball, do you think you'd still have been able to get the same degree of accuracy with your measurements using all the other reference material you have?


Not as accurately, no way.  Lots of camera lenses from the 60's and 70's had wild, asymmetrical distortions everywhere but the dead center, making accurate photogrammetry all but impossible.  I could've gotten pretty close just by eye, to be honest, but not this close.  The Hammersmith shot may be the single most fortuitous shot of the TY-J ever taken.  Incidentally, this shot of a post-MK I box (not sure/not the expert) clearly shows the downturn right-panel artifact and the upturned left window artifact.  I think it's safe to say any door/wall that doesn't exhibit this clear artifact doesn't have the provenance of being from the original former/mould.  

EJNFE1a.jpg

ThymeLorde

I have to admit, I'm somewhat frustrated by your research, as it's caused me to look at my TARDIS toy (which I already know is woefully inaccurate) and my 1:6 Jamie Bate TARDIS kit, in a different light. Where I once saw great recreations of the TYJ box, now I see boring, symmetrical, and, at best, "idealized" versions of the prop. No downturned crossrail, no buckled roof stack, no diameter-changing quarter round... it gives me half a mind to make one entirely myself, just as you're doing!  ;D
"An apple a day keeps the... no, never mind."

mverta

Feb 07, 2019, 12:27 am #101 Last Edit: Feb 07, 2019, 05:01 am by mverta
I have found the easiest way for a paint store to match a color is to have them match... paint.

I will mix my own custom colors using artist acrylics, taking as long as I need and doing as many iterations as are necessary, and then take the final chip to the store for them to put under their colorimeter.  They will still have to do a lot of back-and-forth and experimenting to get it, but it's a different conversation and they're less combative when they're already looking at proof it can exist in paint.

Paint_Match.jpg

mverta

Feb 07, 2019, 07:05 am #102 Last Edit: Feb 07, 2019, 11:29 am by mverta
I have two months of experiments before the actual build; two months to learn the particular weathering recipe for this, but of course it's some variety of what's always done...

This is blue, light blue, light gray, dark purple, green, white... just tons of shades, mostly rubbed on with a mostly-dry paper towel, then rubbed off and applied again. This isn't right, yet, but it'll be something in this vein; always is.

By the way, this is hella fun; I recommend it.

Paint_Test_2.jpg

mverta

This control file went to fabrication today!

INTERIOR_DOOR_HANDLE.jpg

We're going to do the countersink holes and screws after the fact just to allow for a little leeway or unforseen things at installation/build.


Mark

Is that an internal door handle you've created?

It does remind me of one.

One of the places I visit on an almost daily basis through work has this type of door handle and I keep dropping massive hints I would like a couple if they become spare.

I'll get you a picture if it helps.