Discussions surrounding the identification of 4 studio owned Police Box Props

[domvar]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052301/

Following an interesting debate on Twitter last night initially between Clayton Hickman, Jon Green (of the Dalek6388 pge fame), Our own Tony Farrell, and myself

I realised that we have quite a few appearances that don't have their own thread because they are contained within the older ones

These are the pictures that Clayton posted last night and if any one wants to read through the whole thing it starts here :-

https://twitter.com/claytonhickman/status/822530650049773568







and for completeness here is a link to the original post in the now and then thread from Markofrani

http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=743.msg8480#msg8480

This box is a very good prop, I speculated that it could be the box later used for the cushing films but this is far from a done deal and is speculation on my part but I figured this would be a good starting point for our experts to throw in their opinion, as Jon Green quite rightly pointed out because of their prevalence on the streets in the 30s - 60s there is a strong chance that studios had a prop PB kicking around.


Dom

[tony farrell]

I realise that this isn't the correct topic but I'm sure Alan will move the post after Dom gets in touch with him:

We also managed to definitively identify the prop which the Who Shop has claimed is the Cushing Box. It is - in fact - the box which appeared in a 1964 episode of "Gideon's Way" called "The Tin God"!

The discussion that Dom refers to went on for several hours with many more contributions from a lot more people (and is, in fact, still carrying on this morning). We may also have identified the box which appeared in 30 Years in the Tardis and also the origin of the rumour that the Tardis was cut down because it wouldn't fit in the goods lift.

Here are the Gideon's Way screen-grabs and the Who Shop prop for comparison, note the identical handle, proportions and the two bolt-heads in the central divider; all that seems to have changed is the loss of the drip-sill above the phone panel (and the removal of the St John Badge and original roof lamp):






I'll try and summarise the discussions and present them for Tardis Builders in a way which people will be able to follow (well, in a way which is much easier to follow than it currently is on Twitter).

T

EDIT: The 30 Years in the Tardis prop has now been identified and it was cut down - losing its original high-stacked roof! The prop appears in the film "The Lavender Hill Mob" all the way back in 1951 and actually might pre-date this!

[darren79]

So this box (as now owned by the Who Shop) was featured in an episode of 60's series Gideon's Way - episode The Tin God.

It found subsequently found it's way to Doctor Who Appreciation Society. It was in a bad state of repair but got fixed up.

It appeared in The Lord Major's show in 1981 on the DWAS Float.

And then ended up with the Who Shop.

(not the Too Many Crooks box)

[darren79]

This doesn't seem to have been mentioned so I'll bring it up.

Bernard Cribbins had a TV series on ITV around 1969. There is a sketch where he plays a policeman talking on the phone about king kong standing next to him. The box featured (about 3/4 years after the Cushing films has obviously had a darker paint job and it's windows adjusted (no longer transparent).



Link to the episode in which it features (17:15) - https://youtu.be/a-nnT94EOl8?t=17m14s

[classic who]

I don't think this has been mentioned here, I can't see anything about it, but it was fairly recently established that the New Avengers box was not the Cushing one.

Instead of the usual Police Box signage, it actually says Regents Park, and this box can be seen in the 1968 film, Nobody Runs Forever, with a policeman using the phone from behind the panel.

[lym]

There's no evidence to suggest that the Nobody Runs Forever box wasn't the Cushing box in the first place, though, besides those slight modifications that were made to it.

[classic who]

Interesting point, but both the Nobody Runs Forever film and The New Avengers series were made at Pinewood.

The Cushing films were of course, made at Shepperton, and the Cushing Box may well have still been there in 68, as were the Dalek props, which were played with ,by the young members of the musical, Oliver, made at Shepperton in 67.

It's not impossible that Pinewood got the box from Shepperton, but chances are, they had their own prop.

[Angelus Lupus]

We need Tony to weigh in on this, ever since he posted here: http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=7060.msg92540#msg92540

There's more to come yet (including the very distinct possibility that the Dalek films/Aaru Police Box wasn't destroyed in the New Avengers and the equally distinct possibility that "The Thirty Years in the Tardis" prop is, in actual fact, the oldest screen-used Tardis in existence)!

I have been intrigued 

[lym]

Agreed. Whether the box was destroyed or not, the history surrounding it is interesting enough as it is.

[classic who]

Yes, would be most interested in any more info, I hadn't seen that quote.

The Thirty Years box, wasn't that the Ealing prop?...it would make it the earliest one, certainly.

It does seem possible that the major studios each had their own prop.

Also, I'm sure I have seen some pictures of Willam Hartnell with the Ealing prop, at an event, back in the day.

Would like to know more about the box in Cribbins, as well, shame you can't see the top, but the series is coming out on DVD later in the year.

[lym]

Yep - here's the thread on Hartnell with the Ealing box:

http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=8007.0

[classic who]

Ah, thanks for that, I hadn't realised it was here I had seen it, I was wondering if I had dreamt it up!

So, two, possibly three film props at least!

[lym]

No problem!

Would like to know more about the box in Cribbins, as well, shame you can't see the top, but the series is coming out on DVD later in the year.

Agreed, it definitely seems like a big piece in the puzzle that is the fate of this box. One thing I've noticed is that both the box in Cribbins and the box in Nobody Runs Forever have the phone door handle opening from the left side and seem to be of a similar shape and construction - but the Cribbins box lacks the St. John Ambulance insignia.



Both the Nobody Runs Forever and the Avengers box, however, have the SJA sign on with the X shape rather than the actual + shape; if the Cribbins box is the same one as in Nobody Runs Forever, then why was the SJA sign removed only to be reinstated for The New Avengers?

[classic who]

That's a nice screen grab from the film, thanks for that.

Looking at that Cribbins screen grab, the SJA badge might well be there, as it looks like that panel is obscured by the open phone panel.

edit:  Just looked at the YT clip, it IS there, so possibly the same one.

[tony farrell]

We need Tony to weigh in on this, ever since he posted here: http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=7060.msg92540#msg92540

There's more to come yet (including the very distinct possibility that the Dalek films/Aaru Police Box wasn't destroyed in the New Avengers and the equally distinct possibility that "The Thirty Years in the Tardis" prop is, in actual fact, the oldest screen-used Tardis in existence)!

I have been intrigued  

Did someone mention my name?  

To take the points I made in reverse order: The History of the Ealing Studios/Thirty years in the Tardis Box is covered in reasonable depth here - http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=8007.msg101905#msg101905.

As regards my assertion that the box destroyed in The New Avengers episode "Target" was not the Peter Cushing/Aaru/Shepperton Studios Box, I was hoping that a search of the Shepperton Studios Archive would provide us with definitive proof. However, somewhat disappointingly, my endeavours in that regard haven't yet yielded any results.

Nevertheless, despite that set-back I can - at least - offer some observations which do seem to point to the fact that the box blown up in "Target" was not the Cushing/Aaru/Shepperton Studios Box at all but rather was the Pinewood Studios Police Box which had appeared in numerous productions made by that film studio:

So, let's look at the evidence.

Firstly, the box that was actually blown up in "Target":

As we've seen, the destroyed box clearly has the Regents Park top signage which is seen in the 1968 film "Nobody Runs Forever".




Clearly, if you're going to blow a box up, you're not going to redress it with parts from another box; there simply isn't any point in wasting precious resources. As Lymerence mentions in his comments above (see http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=891.msg110012#msg110012), the boxes which appeared in "Nobody Runs forever" and in "Cribbins" both had phone panels which opened the same way.



Now, clearly phone panels can be rehung to open whichever way is desired so, this isn't proof that we are looking at the same box but, I would draw your attention to the phone panel's inner frame - look at the thickness of the inner frame in "Nobody Runs Forever", "Cribbins" and "Target":



Now, the phone panel's inner frame from the Cushing/Aaru/Shepperton Studios' Box:



Before anyone points out that these screen-grabs are from the movie Tardis' interior set rather than from the inside of the movie Police Box, can I draw your attention to the damage/paint smudge on the glass of the window above the phone panel and to the construction of the doors:





As my mate Jon Green (half of the team which has brought us Dalek 63-88) pointed out to me, the same smudge is present on the doors when viewed from both inside and outside, the same wooden batons around the doors' recessed panels are also visible on the inside as just as they are from the outside. It would seem that as an economy measure, in order to create the Tardis' interior, the doors were simply removed from the Police Box and re-used for the interior's set!

Obviously, the thickness of the phone panel's inner frame cannot be described as definitive proof that we are dealing with two boxes; we must look for further distinguishing factors;

Let's turn to the position of the lock:

On the box seen in "Nobody Runs Forever", "Cribbins" and in "Target", the lock is nearer the centre of the door - it does not lie directly under the opening (right-hand) door's handle:



By contrast, the lock on the Cushing/Aaru/Shepperton Studios' Box lies directly under the handle and is nearer the central dividing strip:



To re-iterate, none of this is definitive proof that we are seeing two entirely distinct and separate boxes but, why would you bother thickening the phone panel's inner frame and why would you bother moving the lock?

As we've seen the "Nobody Runs Forever", "Cribbins" and "Target" boxes share the same inner phone panel frame's dimensions, they also share the same lock's position and the "Nobody Runs Forever" and "Target" boxes share the same Regents Park signage. I therefore think we can be reasonably confident that the "Nobody Runs Forever" box and The New Avengers "Target" box are one and the same (sharing as they do, the Regents Park signage, lock position and thicker inner phone panel frame) and that it is reasonable to suggest that the "Cribbins" box might be the same one too.

Let's try and 'drill down' a little further:

The first thing to say is that Shepperton Studios made the two Dalek films whilst Pinewood made "Nobody Runs Forever" and The New Avengers. So, two entirely separate studios. Now, we know that Ealing Studios also had their own Police Box (which was ultimately used in "Thirty Years in the Tardis") whilst Elstree Studios also had their own box which ultimately ended up in "The Who Shop". So, separate studios had their own Police Boxes.

The question then becomes did Pinewood and Shepperton share the same box or did they too have separate boxes? So, as well as the differences in the phone panel's inner frame and position of the lock, are there any other differences which we might use to determine whether these were two entirely separate boxes or were they the same box that was inexplicably altered prior to it being blown up?

So, let's look at the construction of the boxes:

In both Dalek movies, the Cushing/Aaru Box appears in darkness and is lit from within:




In both scenes, light can be seen escaping above the Tardis' side panels - there is a gap between the top of the side panel and the underside of the stepped section.

In "Nobody Runs Forever" the Police Box also appears in darkness and is - again - lit from within:




Unlike the Cushing/Aaru Box, the Pinewood Box has no light escaping above the side panels.

So, we now have three distinguishing features between the two boxes - the phone panel's thicker inner frame, the position of the lock and a non-existent gap above the side panels. With these distinguishing characteristics now identified, are we really expected to believe that this is the same box? The assertion that we are is now beginning to stretch credulity.

Two further distinguishing factors can also be identified:



Note the prominence of the joints either side of the cross-rail in the Pinewood Box. Note too, that these joins are level with the sides of the window recess.

Now the Cushing/Aaru/Shepperton Box:



Not only are the joints much less prominent but they are also in a different position - in fact, the joint between the cross rail and the upright on the Shepperton Box lies at the edge of the baton which we noted that surrounds the panel recess; no such baton is visible on the Pinewood Box.

The final difference is located in the corner-posts of the Pinewood Box - a joint is clearly visible just below the bottom edge of the windows (roughly at the same height as the centre-point of the doors' cross-rail.

Firstly, the Shepperton Box where no joint in the corner-post is visible:



Now the Pinewood box where the joint is clearly visible (roughly level with the brim of the policeman's helmet):



Finally, this screen-grab from "Too Many Crooks" - a comedy film produced at Pinewood Studios in 1959:



The joints in the corner-posts are in the same place as the joints in the ones seen in "Nobody Runs Forever"!

Like Ealing and Elstree, Pinewood Studios had its own Police Box. This box was used in the film "Too Many Crooks" and later in "Nobody Runs Forever". The television series "The New Avengers" was produced at Pinewood and the box blown up in "Target" had the same Regents Park signage as seen in "Nobody Runs Forever".

The Pinewood Box differs in five respects from the box seen in the Shepperton Studios/Aaru production of the two Dalek films; it has a thicker inner frame behind the phone panel, the lock is in a different position, there doesn't appear to be a gap above its side-panels, the doors are constructed differently and lastly, it has joins in its corner-posts.

The title of this topic is the "Cushing Box in The New Avengers" and the subject is defined as 'Destroyed in the episode "Target" '. Whilst none of what I've written is definitive, surely there is now sufficient doubt to assert with quite such confidence that it was the Cushing Box which was destroyed in The New Avengers!

T