Oct 20, 2020, 05:40 pm

News:

New, New TardisBuilders!


The Celestial Toymaker

Started by markofrani, Sep 23, 2016, 07:18 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

galacticprobe

Sep 29, 2016, 04:18 am #30 Last Edit: Sep 29, 2016, 04:19 am by galacticprobe
Quote from: kert gantry on Sep 28, 2016, 07:29 am
Sorry, I'd forgotten that bit!  :)


No worries, Kert. I didn't remember that part either, until I stumbled across it. It's all good, and you did point everyone in the right direction with mentioning that we had discussed it before. So kudos for that! :D

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

Scarfwearer

Jan 21, 2017, 01:29 pm #31 Last Edit: Jan 21, 2017, 01:30 pm by Scarfwearer
So based on what's been said so far, here's a representation of the suggested origins of the parts of the prop in its later years:

frankenstein.jpg

The blue parts are from the Brachacki prop (1963),
The white parts are two of the Celestial Toymaker mockups (1966)
The red parts are later additions and repairs (mostly 1970 onwards)

I've coloured the side sign box red, because they appear to have been altered, but their origin has not been discussed.
(Could they have been from the other two mockups?)

Crispin

galacticprobe

Jan 22, 2017, 05:12 am #32 Last Edit: Jan 22, 2017, 05:12 am by galacticprobe
Crispin, maybe it's my stanky old wizzard eyes, but it looks like you've colored the side window panes red. I know the window frames are still from the original Brachacki (1963), but did they replace the all pebbled "glass" in the windows at sometime in the 1970s?

I know when the Newbery replaced this Old Girl the new box had only the lower outer panes pebbled, with the rest frosted, but what about this last outing for the Brachacki-Altered? From every photo I've seen in the Reference Section it looks like she's still got the all pebbled panes in the windows. Am I off the mark in thinking that?

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

Scarfwearer

The colours are intended to show where the parts came from, rather than when: for example, immediately after the 'refit', the roof, base and door sign would still be coloured blue. You could do a whole time sequence of pictures coloured like this showing when the different parts changed.

My understanding is that the windows were clear (dirtied) panes with the outer lower panes pebbled until 1966, and that when the side walls were reused for this prop in 1966 they became all-pebbled to match the glass in the re-used white mock-ups (except the front window on the left side, which lingered with the original pattern for much longer).

I've coloured the side sign box and window panes red because they're clearly not original, but it seems possible that the glass was  re-used from the other two mock-ups, and so should also be coloured white.

I think at this point that calling this a 'refit' or 'Brachacki Altered' is a misnomer. It's a substantially different prop even from the point where Ben and Polly step aboard at the end of the War Machines. And by the end of its tenure it's getting like Grandfather's Axe, with very little in the way of original parts.
By the time Lis Sladen stepped aboard in the Time Warrior, she presumably wasn't looking at any of the same wood as was seen by Jackie Lane when she left during the War Machines - unless she happened to peer around at the side of the box.

Or so I understand. I'm really just trying to summarize other people's research here.

I've taken privately to calling this the Frankentardis, or sometimes the Toymaker Tardis.

Crispin

galacticprobe

Jan 23, 2017, 05:39 am #34 Last Edit: Jan 23, 2017, 05:41 am by galacticprobe
I stand corrected, Crispin. I've been pouring over the Original Brachacki reference images (eye-watering!), and you're absolutely right about the window pane configuration. The all-pebbled look is an optical illusion created by that dirtying of the windows; depending on how the light hits them they sometimes look like they're all pebbled glass, but in some of the better images you can clearly make out the frosted panes, and the lower outer pebbles panes, and the "dirt spatters" on the frosted panes that, in lesser resolution images, gives them the illusion of being pebbled as well.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction once again! :)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

fivefingeredstyre

Quote from: Scarfwearer on Jan 21, 2017, 01:29 pm
So based on what's been said so far, here's a representation of the suggested origins of the parts of the prop in its later years:

frankenstein.jpg

The blue parts are from the Brachacki prop (1963),
The white parts are two of the Celestial Toymaker mockups (1966)
The red parts are later additions and repairs (mostly 1970 onwards)

I've coloured the side sign box red, because they appear to have been altered, but their origin has not been discussed.
(Could they have been from the other two mockups?)

Crispin
going over old ground, but are we saying that the reason for cutting the original prop down from its original height during the 1966 refurb was because the front and rear faces of the prop were replaced with a couple of the Toy maker facades (including the corner posts...)

I've checked through the first couple of pages of Tony's very comprehensive article on the prop and it only makes reference to the changes themselves. I was looking at the pictures of the facades posted up thread and I noticed that the corner posts look the same height as the "cut-down" originals.

The reuse of the facade posts could also explain the lack of inner quadrants on the side faces of the posts and why the box suddenly became rectangular...

tony farrell

These are the best photos of the Toy Maker "Tardis Cabinets" I have:

C3WGe20XAAUr9xD.jpgC5R0xTxW8AIUWjA.jpg

It looks as if your are correct; the side panels were removed from the cabinets but the side portions of the corner-posts were retained - resulting (as you say) in the 'missing' internal quadrants on the side elevations of the Tardis after the 1966 refit.

Interestingly none of the "Tardis Cabinets" have the little step which appeared under the Tardis' doors after the '66 refit.

myphoto (20).jpg

So as well as rehanging the cabinet doors to open inwards, it appears the little step was added to slightly raise the 'cabinet' doors to better match the heights of the pre-existing side panels from the original Brachacki Tardis.

T


markofrani

As the bottom cross bar seems to be less than 3 inches tall, it looks more likely that the cross bar was reduced in height to allow for the the sill iron "step".
From "Power Of the Daleks"...
cross bar.jpg

tony farrell

Mar 01, 2017, 09:55 pm #38 Last Edit: Mar 01, 2017, 10:34 pm by Tony Farrell
In his book "TV Scenic Design", (Focal Press 1989, page 48) Gerald Millerson defines a sill iron - also known as a saddle iron - as a detachable narrow metal strip which is fitted to the bottom of a doorway's architrave to provide additional stability to a scenic doorway 'flat'. Effectively, it is fitted to stop the flat buckling/splitting when the 'flat' is moved into and out of the studio. Indeed, the use of such a detachable sill iron is specified on the original set drawings for the main Tardis interior doorway.

That aside, the point I was trying to make was that the "Tardis Cupboards" weren't simply fitted to the front and rear of the Tardis during the 1966 refit; the cupboard doors were themselves altered a) to open the opposite way round and b) we see the appearance of the small wooden door step (with quadrant facing) which wasn't present on the Tardis/Police Box exterior in the first three seasons of its use.  :)

fivefingeredstyre

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Mar 01, 2017, 04:32 pmIt looks as if your are correct; the side panels were removed from the cabinets but the side portions of the corner-posts were retained - resulting (as you say) in the 'missing' internal quadrants on the side elevations of the Tardis after the 1966 refit.

Interestingly none of the "Tardis Cabinets" have the little step which appeared under the Tardis' doors after the '66 refit.

myphoto (20).jpg

So as well as rehanging the cabinet doors to open inwards, it appears the little step was added to slightly raise the 'cabinet' doors to better match the heights of the pre-existing side panels from the original Brachacki Tardis.

T
To be fair I was merely summing up what had been mentioned up thread a while...

I'd love to know why they felt the need to actually replace both the front and the back like this. Any plans to revisit the original article to add this information?

You mention the little steps, do we think these were added to the rear of the prop as well? These doors appear to have been unmodified, so perhaps it wasn't necessary?

jamiebate

I *think* I've seen a photo from 'The Savages' which shows the back doors having the door knobs...

tony farrell

Yes Jamie, you have - the door knobs are clearly visible in a photo posted by Jonathan/Markofrani from "The Abominable Snowmen" and they are also clearly visible in the woodland scenes where UNIT soldiers are guarding the Tardis in "Spearhead from Space".

T

jamiebate

My meaning was that this would predate the refit of 66', The Savages being the story before The War Machines

Scarfwearer

Anything's possible, but that would be surprising. Can you find the photo?

tony farrell

Jun 22, 2017, 03:17 pm #44 Last Edit: Jun 22, 2017, 03:19 pm by Tony Farrell
There's this one but, I can't see any door knobs on the rear doors.

Savages (1).jpg

Perhaps Jonathan/Markofrani has a larger (clearer) version?

T