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The Celestial Toymaker

Started by markofrani, Sep 23, 2016, 07:18 pm

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Angelus Lupus

Almost closed. It certainly does look like we have to re-write the 'doors shortened due to damage' part. From these white 'fakes' we have front and back doors, plus two sides, complete with corresponding corner-posts at the same height and two new (frosted) signs. That only leaves a roof and base, neither of which appear to be present in the Toymaker images.
So... was the base of the original removed and fitted to the new box? What of the roof? Does this explain why it fitted so badly from here on? On the other hand, if the base and/or roof are also new, then what we have here is not a refit but a 90 to 100% new build.
...And then we repeat the TYJ head-scratcher of 'have the replaced parts survived'?
A mixed-up non-conformist, trying to fit in.

gerald lovell

Back onto "The Tenth Planet" Episode 4, do we know the scene with the Doctor at the doors was shot as scripted?  The TARDIS exterior scenes were apparently all filmed at Ealing and there is no record of Gordon Craig (who doubled for Hartnell at Ealing) appearing in Episode 4 . . .

markofrani

Quote from: gerald lovell on Sep 25, 2016, 09:08 pm
Back onto "The Tenth Planet" Episode 4, do we know the scene with the Doctor at the doors was shot as scripted?  The TARDIS exterior scenes were apparently all filmed at Ealing and there is no record of Gordon Craig (who doubled for Hartnell at Ealing) appearing in Episode 4 . . .


The Studio floor plan, which shows the duplicate doors outside the Tardis control room, was drawn for use at Riverside studios. If this scene did take place, it would have been a close-up shot of Hartnell entering the Tardis through the Police box doors very similar to the scene from the Pilot where Barbara enters the Ship...

TTP_4_duplicate_doors.jpg

Quote from: Angelus Lupus on Sep 25, 2016, 08:19 pm
So... was the base of the original removed and fitted to the new box? What of the roof? Does this explain why it fitted so badly from here on? On the other hand, if the base and/or roof are also new, then what we have here is not a refit but a 90 to 100% new build.


The base and roof are almost certainly from the original prop, as neither were available from any of the spare props.
Also, both the roof and base are ill-fitting to the rest of the prop. If they were new, they'd be bespoke to the new version.

Looking again at the Loose Canon Celestial re-con, there is a CGI image - sadly not a photo - of the set with 3 of the white mock-ups...

Ct_comp.jpg


Angelus Lupus

So we have a Tardis that is made of four new sides (front/back doors and walls) and the original base and roof. Understood.
Here's my confusion: given that the replacement wasn't because of damage, why build a new box (even if you keep the old top and bottom)? Was there a reason that the Old Girl needed to be shorter than before?
Where did the (presumably undamaged) original panels go?
A mixed-up non-conformist, trying to fit in.

galacticprobe

Sep 26, 2016, 04:52 am #19 Last Edit: Sep 26, 2016, 05:15 am by galacticprobe
Quote from: fivefingeredstyre on Sep 25, 2016, 08:55 am
Oh well spotted! (great picture as well)

Thanks, Steve. But to give credit where it's due, that was a crop from the image Jonathan posted.

Quote from: fivefingeredstyre on Sep 25, 2016, 08:55 am
Fantastic Abominable Snowman picture as well, you can the tops of the corner posts are exposed from when they were cut down (the same way the post tops on the original 2005 box were open as well :D

Gives you a good idea of how the posts were originally built :)

I'll say! Look at the thickness of the parts of those posts, particularly on the sides, and behind the quarter-round. It looks like there's only a thin bit of "plank" on the "flat faces" of those corner posts, unless there is more structural members inside them.

Quote from: fivefingeredstyre on Sep 25, 2016, 09:30 am
I'm guessing you may be right about the window being missing;

Oh... yeah... definitely; "guessing" is the appropriate word. ;)

Quote from: fivefingeredstyre on Sep 25, 2016, 09:30 am
however its worth noting that if they used hinges and braces like I used on my box the braces can be lifted up over the window frame window can be simply left resting inside the box...

Well, not to slight the prop builders at the BBC back then, but they might not have had your intuitive thought processes. They may have just build those windows using the method they were familiar with, which would have been actual Police (Met) Box windows. (Another crop from Jonathan's photo:)

DIOE.jpg
I didn't lighten this one because the detail actually stands out more with the image as is, but take a look at where the red arrow is pointing this time. You can see that "elbow" joint in the hinge, which leads me to believe that those windows' supports are hinged just as they were on the Met Boxes. Of course they could also be unscrewed from the window frames to lower the windows like yours can be lowered, but given the damage from the falling rubble in the "Dalek Invasion Of Earth", the thin wood making the window muntons and other parts of the frame - not to mention the perspex "glass" panes, it's possible they had to remove that window for some repair, and thought no one would notice it missing with all of that debris covering the TARDIS.

Still only guessing, though! :D

Quote from: markofrani on Sep 25, 2016, 09:45 pm
Looking again at the Loose Canon Celestial re-con, there is a CGI image - sadly not a photo - of the set with 3 of the white mock-ups...

That image is a CGI?! :o Wow! It's pretty good to say the least! (I hope that Loose Canon re-con is released for Region 1 once they're done with it. I'd love to add another Troughton story to my collection, provided the price is right. I've been looking to add "The War Games", but can't seem to find a copy for less that $100 US - which is a good chunk for me at the moment.)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

markofrani

Quote from: Angelus Lupus on Sep 26, 2016, 12:42 am
So we have a Tardis that is made of four new sides (front/back doors and walls) and the original base and roof. Understood.
Here's my confusion: given that the replacement wasn't because of damage, why build a new box (even if you keep the old top and bottom)? Was there a reason that the Old Girl needed to be shorter than before?
Where did the (presumably undamaged) original panels go?


Though I'm still searching for definitive evidence as to why, I believe the Tardis 'refit' undertaken for the studio sessions for The War Machines', consisted of the original sides of the Brachacki prop and the front and rear sections replaced by two of the 'Toymaker' mock-ups left in storage. The ill-fitting roof and base were original to the prop. The only explanation I can think of is that the prop was badly damaged on location, with the original front and rear door sections having to be junked.

fivefingeredstyre

Quote from: markofrani on Sep 26, 2016, 07:48 pmThough I'm still searching for definitive evidence as to why, I believe the Tardis 'refit' undertaken for the studio sessions for The War Machines', consisted of the original sides of the Brachacki prop and the front and rear sections replaced by two of the 'Toymaker' mock-ups left in storage. The ill-fitting roof and base were original to the prop. The only explanation I can think of is that the prop was badly damaged on location, with the original front and rear door sections having to be junked.
Got to be honest, thats how it looks to me as well (regarding the front and rear sides of the refitted prop using the Toymaker mockups). If only because the windows on the TARDIS's side walls still retained their original drip sills after the '66 refit, which the Toymaker mockups don't seem to feature.

Do we know exactly how many white facades were featured in the Toymaker?

kert gantry

Seems there were four.  See my post above.

markofrani

Sep 26, 2016, 10:08 pm #23 Last Edit: Sep 26, 2016, 10:11 pm by markofrani
Yes, that's right, there were four. Interestingly, the fourth one has a lock on the right door, although both the knob and lock are slightly higher than the other three mock-ups...

CT_4.jpg

CT_2.jpg

kert gantry

I guess that's the unopenable fourth cupboard that could have been the real TARDIS until it proved to be another fake. I'm not sure but I think that little oblong hole in the right hand door panel may have held one of the move counters for the Trilogic Game?

gerald lovell

Quote from: markofrani on Sep 25, 2016, 09:45 pm

The Studio floor plan, which shows the duplicate doors outside the Tardis control room, was drawn for use at Riverside studios. If this scene did take place, it would have been a close-up shot of Hartnell entering the Tardis through the Police box doors very similar to the scene from the Pilot where Barbara enters the Ship...

TTP_4_duplicate_doors.jpg



Or, from listening to the audio, perhaps Polly and Ben banging on the doors, shouting out to the Doctor to let them in?

kert gantry

Not totally conclusive but we went into this at some detail in the Police Box Porch In Toymaker thread.  Camera positions indicate that any view of the porch doors would have been from inside the control room looking out.  Telesnap of Ben and Polly banging on the doors shows a film insert from Ealing with the full TARDIS prop.

galacticprobe

Sep 28, 2016, 04:32 am #27 Last Edit: Sep 28, 2016, 04:35 am by galacticprobe
Quote from: kert gantry on Sep 27, 2016, 09:30 pm
Not totally conclusive but we went into this at some detail in the Police Box Porch In Toymaker thread.


In case anyone is having trouble locating the thread Kert referenced, you can find it here: http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=6378.0. (I had trouble finding it. It's the extra "Pilot Episode" part in the thread's title that throws you.)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

kert gantry

Sorry, I'd forgotten that bit!  :)

quiettype5

Does anyone think we ought to add a section in reference on the porch. It has quite a significant presence. The Pilot, the Massacre, the Celestial Toymaker, Tenth Planet. Stop me if I'm wrong, but is it the porch that Dodo and the Doctor step out of at the beginning of the War Machines? Just before we see the refitted brachacki for the first time. I've been hopping between threads this morning, trying to see if anyone had already thought that.
Brachacki, Newbury, Yardley-Jones, Hudolin and Richmond.
To everyone else they are just names.