Fictional operation of the MK 1 Tardis controls (Part 2)

Started by TheMasterRichman, Aug 16, 2016, 04:37 pm

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TheMasterRichman

I have been searching for days for what other switches did but no hope :( , But does anyone know any switches, that would be a good help to me/us, ;)

- Rich
Barbara: Doctor, the trembling stopped, The Doctor: Oh, my dear! I'm so glad you're feeling better. Barbara: No! Not me! The ship! The Doctor: Oh, the... Oh, my! I'm so sorry...

galacticprobe

Aug 31, 2016, 05:03 am #31 Last Edit: Aug 31, 2016, 05:04 am by galacticprobe
Once again I mention Tony and his meticulous research into the original Brachacki console. And I know that Tony is focusing on the "practical" operation of the console and not the "fictional" operation of the controls, but with all of his research, he may at least be able to tell us which switch, lever, etc. operated which lamps and indicators. He might know that Lever "X" on Panel 1 turned on "this" lamp, or switch "Y" on "that" panel turned on a symbolic indicator, or these toggle switches turned on the column's lights and turntable.

It's far from the fictional operation as those controls served a practical purpose, but once we know which controls operated which lights and indicators and such, then we can build the fictional operation up from there - with lots of luck.

So, Tony, when you read this, we're only asking your help with figuring out which controls did what on the console from the practical point. We'll fill in the fictional function from there.

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

tony farrell

I think Dino - without seeming as coming across as not wanting to help - I've already done what Rich has asked in terms of stating which switch operated which lamp, etc (well, as far as I've been able to).

I've already said that I thought Rich was going to struggle with this not only because the majority of the switches, etc didn't actually physically 'do' anything but also because in Patrick Troughton's era the Console was never seemingly 'operated' consistently from one story to the next.

In addition, despite it being at the centre of the Tardis, the console actually gets very little 'screen-time'. For instance, throughout the entire five years of the Jon Pertwee era, the scenes in which the Console appears actually total up to a mere 80 minutes: That includes stories like The Time Monster and The Three Doctors where a lot of the adventures were set inside the Tardis. Take those two stories out, and we're down to a little under forty minutes screen-time in five seasons and, in half of that, the Console is only in the background! (Before anyone asks, those timings are accurate - as part of my research into the Kenneth Sharp Console, Steve W sent me a copy of every scene in which the Pertwee Console appeared!)

So, I'm sorry - apart from the limited information I've already posted in this thread - I really don't think I'll be able to help Rich.

T


TheMasterRichman

Aug 31, 2016, 11:32 am #33 Last Edit: Aug 31, 2016, 11:33 am by Richman695
Right, Okay, here's what I have done,

Panel 6.png

Panel 1.png

- Rich
Barbara: Doctor, the trembling stopped, The Doctor: Oh, my dear! I'm so glad you're feeling better. Barbara: No! Not me! The ship! The Doctor: Oh, the... Oh, my! I'm so sorry...

galacticprobe

Sep 01, 2016, 03:45 am #34 Last Edit: Sep 01, 2016, 05:59 am by galacticprobe
Quote from: Tony Farrell on Aug 31, 2016, 07:31 am
I think Dino - without seeming as coming across as not wanting to help - I've already done what Rich has asked in terms of stating which switch operated which lamp, etc (well, as far as I've been able to).

Thanks, Tony. That's all we could ask for.

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Aug 31, 2016, 07:31 am
I've already said that I thought Rich was going to struggle with this...

Yeah... I think that's the understatement of the year! Looking for the practical side is hard enough, especially as you have pointed out more than once that when Hartnell operates the console, more often than not, his hands aren't really in shot. So when he flips switches or turns knobs and lights come on, we really can't tell which control lit up what.

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Aug 31, 2016, 07:31 am
...not only because the majority of the switches, etc didn't actually physically 'do' anything...

True, and earlier in Rich's "Part 1" thread someone pointed out that there were only 41 lights and a total of 67 switches, knobs, and levers. I think I managed to narrow that down a little by eliminating the "dummy" slide switches and the Tertiary Lever Handles (all of which did nothing), which still left us with something like 47 switches, knobs, and levers to 41 lights (at best case scenario). I'm not sure if those 41 lights include the three inside the column - that wasn't mentioned by the person that counted the lights - but it still leaves us with, again at best case, 6 switches, knobs, and levers that do absolutely nothing... other than look nice.

Maybe we could knock that down to 5 switches, etc. that don't do anything if - big if - we attribute one of those switches to the column's turntable. So that would leave us with 41 lights plus the column turntable (42 operational items) to 47 switches, knobs, and levers. Again that's after eliminating all "dummy" slide switches and Tertiary Lever Handles, and ending up with the best case scenario with a 1:1 switch:light ratio. However, as we've seen in some of those screen grabs, some of the switches and knobs operate more than one light, so really when it comes to the actual operating lights to switches ratio, all bets are off.

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Aug 31, 2016, 07:31 am
...but also because in Patrick Troughton's era the Console was never seemingly 'operated' consistently from one story to the next.

True again. But here, Rich is (I believe) concentrating on the Hartnell era first. (I could be wrong about that since his "modified" drawings read "Hartnell/Troughton Era".) Concentrating on the Hartnell era would be the first one to tackle since it was - to quote from "The Five Doctors": "The original, you might say."

When you do get to the Troughton era, things do change. At the start of "Tomb of the Cybermen", the Doctor walks up to Panel 6 and throws all five of those Secondary Levers to their UP position and it seems like the entire console comes alive at once, other than the column moving; that stays stationary for the moment. And as we've seen on those Troughton era screen grabs, the wiring has changed because the same controls that operated one set of lights in the Hartnell era are now operating a different set of lights: same panel, just different lights. So bouncing between Hartnell and Troughton in one thread can make this task even more difficult, and I would try to work out the Hartnell controls first.

And when all else fails, just throw practicality to the winds and go with what's written in that Doctor Who Monthly article. Sure, it's very incorrect and some of the controls on the console drawings are from the Pertwee era, but the question then becomes, is this being done to actually correlate what we saw in the series, or to get as close to that article's description as you can because that's how you want your TARDIS console to operate? And if it's the latter, there is still nothing wrong with that because it's your console. (The only danger is, as abrxx pointed out earlier in this thread, it perpetuates "oft repeated fan fact" ("fact" used as loosely as the fan belt on a 1958 Edsel) which does not correlate with what is seen on screen.)

So when I said this task was going to be a tough one, I wasn't kidding. :P

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Aug 31, 2016, 07:31 am
In addition, despite it being at the centre of the Tardis, the console actually gets very little 'screen-time'. For instance, throughout the entire five years of the Jon Pertwee era, the scenes in which the Console appears actually total up to a mere 80 minutes: That includes stories like The Time Monster and The Three Doctors where a lot of the adventures were set inside the Tardis. Take those two stories out, and we're down to a little under forty minutes screen-time in five seasons and, in half of that, the Console is only in the background! (Before anyone asks, those timings are accurate - as part of my research into the Kenneth Sharp Console, Steve W sent me a copy of every scene in which the Pertwee Console appeared!)

Wow! Those are some stats. Pertwee appeared in 128 episodes total during his 5-year run. At an average of 24 minutes per episode, that's 3,072 minutes (or 51 hours, 12 minutes), and the console only had 80 of those minutes of screen time - only 1 hour and 20 minutes - or only 40 minutes without "The Three Doctors" and "The Time Monster". (I wonder what those stats would be for Hartnell?)

That's staggering, especially when you think of all the work and detail they put into that console!

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Aug 31, 2016, 07:31 am
So, I'm sorry - apart from the limited information I've already posted in this thread - I really don't think I'll be able to help Rich.

You've already helped by posting that information, Tony. If you've given us all you have regards the switch-to-light operation, then it's all we could ask for, and we thank you for that.

Now... I guess it's time for more head-banging against the desk and wall as we try to correlate the known fact for which switches worked which lights, and try to figure out which other switches worked other lights. And the fact that there are so many missing episodes doesn't afford us much reference for that. Although "The Missing Years" box set that does have the surviving Hartnelll episodes from incomplete stories could shed some more info on this. (Anyone have that box set. and if so, how willing would you be to watch the Hartnell episodes and let us know if you notice anything new when it comes to which switch or lever operates which light?)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

abrxx

Having attempted to study this already for my TARDIS Manual, I can say that this research quickly moves into fiction. We have the following categories:

1) Switch is named (or function is obvious) and we see which switch is used
2) Function is named (like HADS) but we never see an on screen switch. But logically is must be one of them.
3) Switch is used on screen but we have no idea what it did. Most Hartnell usage is in this category. In earlier stories Susan also operates the TARDIS. Between Susan and Hartnell most of the secondary levers and knobs/levers are used during take-off. So we know these levers can be used for flight control. But as to what exactly, the tv footage alone will not tell us.

To further complicate matters, we quickly have to entertain the notion that switches are doing multiple things, if we are to believe on screen footage. Certainly for the meters we know they have two modes:

- when landed they give atmospheric readings (as per the labels that forum members have deciphered in the last few years)
- but in The Daleks during take-off one the meters is giving "power response" readings.

So the narrative itself has established that the meters have at least two modes.

I have more to contribute to this thread but as I mentioned previously I need a way to refer to the individual controls. At some point I will draw some panel schematics using Tony's diagrams but labelled so that we can easily refer to all the controls. Its easier to say switch 5D2 was used in episode blah to do X than to say "the switch on the 5th panel in the top right hand corner second from the right etc....."

galacticprobe

Sep 03, 2016, 09:04 pm #36 Last Edit: Sep 03, 2016, 09:24 pm by galacticprobe
Quote from: abrxx on Sep 02, 2016, 04:41 pm
Having attempted to study this already for my TARDIS Manual, I can say that this research quickly moves into fiction.

I understand what you mean, abrxx, but I believe that was Rich's intent, as the name of this thread suggests: "Fictional operation of the MK 1 Tardis controls (Part 2)". So he's trying to decipher which controls would do what if the TARDIS was a real space-time machine.

Quote from: abrxx on Sep 02, 2016, 04:41 pm
We have the following categories:

I won't bother tackling each item you mentioned here because, as you've mentioned, in all cases this is frustrating. Missing episodes might have shed some light on a few of the items, but we'll never know that unless more episodes are ever found. (Although the HADS is I think first mentioned in "The Krotons", but it's mentioned after the fact - that is the Doctor explains to Zoe why the TARDIS moved on its own when the Krotons tried to destroy it with their "blasters"; he tells her how the HADS works, but we never see him set it. I don't think we ever see any Doctor set it, not even the 11th who mentioned it in "Cold War".)

So this part of the fictional operation is going to be a real frustrating thing to figure out.

Quote from: abrxx on Sep 02, 2016, 04:41 pm
I have more to contribute to this thread but as I mentioned previously I need a way to refer to the individual controls. At some point I will draw some panel schematics using Tony's diagrams but labelled so that we can easily refer to all the controls. Its easier to say switch 5D2 was used in episode blah to do X than to say "the switch on the 5th panel in the top right hand corner second from the right etc....."

And I agree completely. Something like 1PL could refer to Panel 1, Primary Lever, Left-hand, and 1PR could be Panel 1, Primary Lever, Right-hand: 1S1 could be Panel 1, Secondary Lever #1 (presumably counting from left to right).

Just some suggestions, but then we have switches, both rotary and toggle, so maybe a simpler method for labeling controls is needed: 1A1 - the top "speaker grille" on Panel 1, 1A2 - the lower "speaker grille" on Panel 1, etc.

I always new this wasn't going to be easy.

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

TheMasterRichman

I am extremely sorry that I havn't been online on tardis builders, so what's been going on?also abrxx would you like to take over this profile/file thing?

- Rich
Barbara: Doctor, the trembling stopped, The Doctor: Oh, my dear! I'm so glad you're feeling better. Barbara: No! Not me! The ship! The Doctor: Oh, the... Oh, my! I'm so sorry...

galacticprobe

Sep 28, 2016, 04:22 am #38 Last Edit: Sep 28, 2016, 04:22 am by galacticprobe
Quote from: Richman695 on Sep 27, 2016, 08:57 pm
I am extremely sorry that I havn't been online on tardis builders

No need for apologies, Rich. We all know how life can get in the way, and that people have to tend to that first and foremost.

Quote from: Richman695 on Sep 27, 2016, 08:57 pm
so what's been going on?

Not much with this thread... mostly still recovering from the last brain twisters with trying to figure out the controls, and I don't think we really wanted to get too deep into it without getting your input since you started the thread, after all.

Quote from: Richman695 on Sep 27, 2016, 08:57 pm
also abrxx would you like to take over this profile/file thing?

I hope this doesn't mean that you're thinking of leaving us!? ??? I would hate to see you go.

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

TheMasterRichman

Sep 30, 2016, 07:11 pm #39 Last Edit: Sep 30, 2016, 07:18 pm by Richman695
Quote from: galacticprobe on Sep 28, 2016, 04:22 am
I hope this doesn't mean that you're thinking of leaving us!? ??? I would hate to see you go.

No! Dino i am not leaving this profile, i just don't really know this topic well as i thought i was going to be, and i think abrxx is better at this than me.

- Rich
Barbara: Doctor, the trembling stopped, The Doctor: Oh, my dear! I'm so glad you're feeling better. Barbara: No! Not me! The ship! The Doctor: Oh, the... Oh, my! I'm so sorry...

TheMasterRichman

Quote from: galacticprobe on Sep 28, 2016, 04:22 am
Not much with this thread... mostly still recovering from the last brain twisters with trying to figure out the controls, and I don't think we really wanted to get too deep into it without getting your input since you started the thread, after all.


Well i don't really know about this, so i need a lot of help, so you can go really deep into it, i think i should of named it "Help!!! what switch does what on the first/second doctors tardis console".

- Rich
Barbara: Doctor, the trembling stopped, The Doctor: Oh, my dear! I'm so glad you're feeling better. Barbara: No! Not me! The ship! The Doctor: Oh, the... Oh, my! I'm so sorry...

galacticprobe

Oct 01, 2016, 03:25 am #41 Last Edit: Oct 01, 2016, 03:39 am by galacticprobe
Quote from: Richman695 on Sep 30, 2016, 07:11 pm
No! Dino i am not leaving this profile,

Oh, good! I know I'm not alone when I say that your presence here, and your input, would be missed.

Quote from: Richman695 on Sep 30, 2016, 07:11 pm
i just don't really know this topic well as i thought i was going to be, and i think abrxx is better at this than me.

Well, he may well be. But one thing is for sure, this console is not an easy one to figure out. In the "real" world, Tony's research into it has shown that most of the "practical" operation of the lights were mostly controlled from the switch plate on Panel 4, with the odd indicator lamp being operated by a toggle or other switch on its corresponding panel (like the light above the "door toggle switch" that Susan uses in the Pilot and first episode).

Once we get into the "fictional" world, all bets are off because while some of the controls Hartnell used with some consistency, there was little consistency with others. Troughton comes along later and uses the same controls for different functions, and the switches are plainly wired to different lights and such. (It's enough to drive anyone mad.)

And then there is that article in the Doctor Who Monthly issue that has just about everything they claim as fact all wrong (including the appearance of some controls), and with so many fans taking that article as the de facto operation of the console's controls and perpetuating those inaccuracies in posts and reposts on other forums, it's difficult at best to convince anyone that what's in that article is wrong, even when you can show them how wrong it is in an episode. (That article should have been called "The Headache-Maker".)

Quote from: Richman695 on Sep 30, 2016, 07:22 pm
Well i don't really know about this, so i need a lot of help

I think this is unanimous. :)

Quote from: Richman695 on Sep 30, 2016, 07:22 pm
so you can go really deep into it, i think i should of named it "Help!!! what switch does what on the first/second doctors tardis console".

Well, no, I think you've got the title pretty close. It would be safer to maybe have titled two threads, with "~Part 1" concentrating on the Hartnell years because of the wiring differences I mentioned (and you and Tony have posted images of earlier) and the way Hartnell used the controls; and then this one here being "~Part 2" concentrating on the Troughton years, again because of what's been mentioned.

So you've started something good - sort of like an archeological dig - and it's just going to take some time and serious digging to sort it all out (maybe months, maybe years), but if we all keep at it, and concentrate on one era at a time (Hartnell, then Troughton), we'll get there. (If we bounce between the two in the same thread, things will get confusing.)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

The14thDr

Quote from: Richman695 on Oct 01, 2016, 09:08 pm
Quote from: galacticprobe on Oct 01, 2016, 03:25 am
I think this is unanimous. :)


Oh! Look at me, I used a long word. Can someone comment below and say how intelligent I am.   ;D

LOL just had to put that out there.

- Rich

I may be missing something here; is that a reference to something? Or are you just being plain rude?

Kind regards, The14thDr
"Would you like a jelly baby?"

galacticprobe

Oct 02, 2016, 05:54 am #43 Last Edit: Oct 02, 2016, 06:04 am by galacticprobe
Yeah... I'm kind of missing something here as well.

Did I say the wrong thing (in that we're all in agreement on needing lots of help with this)?

Am I being viewed as a laughing stock because I used one word to express the above "in agreement" phrase?

Other members have used far "longer" words that that and no such comment has ever been made about them, so... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over? ???

Dino.
(I believe I've lost interest in this thread. I may join in again after I've watched all the Hartnell stories and taken notes on which control he's using and in which story he's using it, and what he's using it for. And that's going to take a while... a long while.)
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

abrxx

I think the best way to use this thread is for a dumping ground for research from watching the DVDs. I also find I have to watch the clips multiple times to pick up which controls are being used. Also watching the clips with a print-out of the console schematics helps because the camera angle often obscures which controls are being used.

I think the best we can do is list all the different uses for a particular control, like this:

- switch 4B2 was used in The Daleks to do XXX and in The Toymaker to do YYY.

Aside from one or two controls its hard to see consistency.