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Brachacki Door Sign Frame Size

Started by jamiebate, Apr 10, 2016, 01:25 pm

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jamiebate

Does anyone know the dimensions of the original Brachacki door sign frame, obviously the outer is the size of the recess but how wide is the edge on the sides and top?
Thanks

galacticprobe

Apr 11, 2016, 03:51 am #1 Last Edit: Apr 11, 2016, 03:53 am by galacticprobe
I could be wrong (and I know someone will correct me if I am), but after looking at all of the reference images, including this one with a nice close-up of the panel from "The Sensorites":
Sensorites.jpg
And going by the plans for the original Brachacki prop I've got... that used to be accessible in the http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=644.0 thread (still don't know what happened to those plans that were on lespaceplie's site)... I'm guessing the frame is 1/16th-inch smaller all round than the recess.

So if the recess, as on the plans, is 15 inches tall and 12 inches wide, removing 1/16th-inch from each side would make the frame 14 7/8th inches tall and 11 7/8th inches wide... if you want it to open. I can't recall any time the original Brachacki phone panel was opened, so if you're not planning to have it open then I would just shave the frame down enough for it to fit nicely when it slides into the recess. And if you do want it to open and think the 1/16th-inch smaller on each side it a little too much taken off, then just shave it down little by little on each side until it fits into the recess a bit on the loose side so it has room enough to swing clear of the main door rail. (You could also bevel the inside of the phone panel frame on that side to allow for clearance, but in all honesty after looking at the images, I'm pretty sure building the frame with that 1/16th-inch gap on all sides is about right.)

I hope this helps.

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

galacticprobe

Apr 12, 2016, 05:09 am #2 Last Edit: Apr 13, 2016, 04:51 am by galacticprobe
Hey, everyone. I just thought I would pass the word that I got on contact with lespaceplie and asked him about that dead link to his original Brachacki PDF plans. He's been really busy (with this thing called "life" - ugh), but has found a little time to make some updates to his plans. The links in the Topic I've been mentioning with his plans in it will be updated with the new link one of these days... when he gets a chance. But for now, anyone that wants the latest revision - which includes some dimensions on the corner posts and other parts that didn't have dimensions before (so don't trash or overwrite your old versions - keep both!) - you can find them here:
http://www.doctorwhoscarf.com/drwho/brachacki.pdf

And just like before, these are free downloads.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that lespaceplie said to ignore Page 2 - that was something he was working on for a model he was preparing to build. He is still in the process of revising the plans, but the URL to them will not change, just as before when he revised them.

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

tony farrell

Quote from: galacticprobe on Apr 11, 2016, 03:51 am

So if the recess, as on the plans, is 15 inches tall and 12 inches wide, removing 1/16th-inch from each side would make the frame 14 7/8th inches tall and 11 7/8th inches wide... if you want it to open. I can't recall any time the original Brachacki phone panel was opened, so if you're not planning to have it open then I would just shave the frame down enough for it to fit nicely when it slides into the recess. And if you do want it to open and think the 1/16th-inch smaller on each side it a little too much taken off, then just shave it down little by little on each side until it fits into the recess a bit on the loose side so it has room enough to swing clear of the main door rail.

Dino.


Hi Dino, the plans state 15.5" tall by 12" wide not 15".

Incidentally, the phone panel is seen to be partially open in the photos from the Pilot Episode - thereafter (as well as having it's handle removed, gaining a blue outer frame and the hinges swapped to the other side) it was bolted closed. Shortly before the recording of "The Invasion", the Police Box prop was loaned out for the production of "Out of the Unknown" when it was fitted with a phone and therefore an opening panel (though this opening panel was never seen in Dr Who, the internal phone box surround was seen Seeds of Death and in other brief scenes where the right-hand Tardis door is open). (The simplified phone panel which replaced the original in Seeds was quite frequently seen to be slightly ajar.)

T

tony farrell

Apr 12, 2016, 10:18 am #4 Last Edit: Apr 12, 2016, 10:19 am by Tony Farrell
Quote from: galacticprobe on Apr 12, 2016, 05:09 am
Anyone that wants the latest revision - which includes some dimensions on the corner posts and other parts that didn't have dimensions before (so don't trash or overwrite your old versions - keep both!) - you can find them here:
http://www.doctorwhoscarf.com/drwho/brachacki.pdf

And just like before, these are free downloads.

Dino.


From the link Dino has posted:
lespaceplie corner dims.png

I'm confused by these dimensions  - these appear to be for a scale model: The full-sized prop cannot possibly have had door panels which were only 1/64th of an inch thick (that really would be incredibly flimsy)! Why also, do they appear to show triangular edges to the panel recesses? The recesses on the Brachacki Police Box prop had square edges. I wonder if Lespaceplie has inadvertently sent Dino the wrong drawing?

In answer to Jamie's specific question, the corner quadrants were/are 3/4" radius and the front and rear doors set back by 2".

T

galacticprobe

Apr 13, 2016, 04:49 am #5 Last Edit: Apr 14, 2016, 05:28 am by galacticprobe
Quote from: Tony Farrell on Apr 12, 2016, 10:18 am
From the link Dino has posted:
I'm confused by these dimensions - these appear to be for a scale model:

Tony and All: One thing I did forget to mention when I posted the corrected link is that lespaceplie said to ignore Page 2 - that was something he was working on for a model he was preparing to build. (My slip up there. Sorry, everyone.) He is still in the process of revising the plans, but the URL to them will not change, just as before when he revised them. I've edited my post above to include that.

As for the height of the recessed panels being 15.5 inches rather than 15 inches, that could be part of the revisions. If that measurement is incorrect and it should be 15 inches even, please let me know and I'll pass that on to lespaceplie so he can update the drawing.

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Apr 12, 2016, 10:18 am
In answer to Jamie's specific question, the corner quadrants were/are 3/4" radius and the front and rear doors set back by 2".

Tony, thank you so much for responding to that question. I know there is some reference, and a drawing of the corner post (with measurements) on here somewhere, but because I was looking for it (as usual) I can't seem to find it. So if anyone knows where that post is, please post the link to it in here so others that look through this thread will have the reference to click on?

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Apr 12, 2016, 10:03 am
Incidentally, the phone panel is seen to be partially open in the photos from the Pilot Episode - thereafter (as well as having it's handle removed, gaining a blue outer frame and the hinges swapped to the other side) it was bolted closed.

I know about the phone door in the Pilot, but as that was a "one-off". I was sticking to the Production version of the door. (Not "ignoring" the Pilot door, rather just not mentioning it as it was never intended for the general viewer to see... that is until the advent of the DVD era and the Pilot's inclusion in "The Beginnings" box set.)

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Apr 12, 2016, 10:03 am
Shortly before the recording of "The Invasion", the Police Box prop was loaned out for the production of "Out of the Unknown" when it was fitted with a phone and therefore an opening panel (though this opening panel was never seen in Dr Who, the internal phone box surround was seen Seeds of Death and in other brief scenes where the right-hand Tardis door is open).

Again, just sticking to the 'Doctor Who' aspect of the phone door, and I don't know if "Out of the Unknown" was ever seen in the States. It could have been shown only in the UK and its environs (which is probably why I didn't know about that little detail). And even though you can glimpse the internal phone box in Troughton's "Seeds of Death", the phone door was still never seen open.

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Apr 12, 2016, 10:03 am
(The simplified phone panel which replaced the original in Seeds was quite frequently seen to be slightly ajar.)

True, but never seen "open". To the casual viewer that door was always closed - again until the DVDs came out and we got to play with that good old PAUSE button and scrutinize details that no one ever thought would be noticed.

So, not trying to ignore little details, just trying to get that overall feel of the TARDIS prop out there which includes the fact that we never saw the TARDIS phone door open until "Logopilis", which came about 17 years after the original Brachacki TARDIS first appeared, 4 years after it had been retired, and a second replacement was then in use (the Yardley-Jones mk I).

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

tony farrell

Apr 13, 2016, 11:58 am #6 Last Edit: Apr 13, 2016, 01:21 pm by Tony Farrell
We're going round in circles here Dino - you were the one that stated the dimensions of the phone panel as 15 by 12 - I simply pointed out that this is not what the plans you posted the link to state. The plans you posted the link to have been in existence for five years that I'm aware of and haven't been revised (apart from the spelling of Brachacki and the removal of the St John badge).

This is the original:

brachaki_1_.png

And this is the one you posted the link to:

brachacki 2.png

The plans still don't contain the dimensions which Jamie asked about (quadrants and width of the phone panel's frame) but between us, we've provided that clarification for him in the previous posts.

With genuine respect to you Dino, by stating that the panel recesses were 15" by 12", what you've inadvertently done is introduce an element of doubt about every other dimension stated in these plans. The plans don't need to be altered - they are accurate. I went to a great deal of trouble to 'prove' their accuracy by a careful analysis of this picture from The Chase:

tardis with dimensions REDUCED FOR TB.png

My post of the subject seems to have been deleted (or at least I can't find it) but these are the pictures I used to show the correct proportions of the Tardis' doors (you may remember that I used the right-hand door as this is precisely square-on to the viewer):


TARDIS DIMS TOP.png
TARDIS DIMS MID1.png
TARDIS DIMS MID2.png
TARDIS DIMS BOTTOM.png
tardis with dimensions right hand door.png

405.75 (mean panel height in pixels) divided by 314 (mean panel width in pixels) multiplied by 12 (inches) = 15.506 inches.

As a result of this 'proof', Deck 5 was gracious enough to amend his excellent door sign reference by slightly widening it to reflect the 15.5:12 inch aspect ratio of the panel recesses (refer to http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=306.msg607#msg607 statement in blue in the table for "The Brachacki Weathered Panel 1963").

Okay, there may be a couple of dimensions to add to the plans (since the phone panel was clearly designed to be open-able, I agree with Dino that a sixteenth of an inch gap all the way round its frame is reasonable) but Lespaceplie doesn't need to amend the plans in the sense of altering the principal dimensions. They're accurate as they stand!  :)

T

lespaceplie

Yes. I accidentally left a second page on the last PDF update that consists of personal notes for a scale model. I'll leave them be while this discussion is going on.

galacticprobe

Apr 14, 2016, 05:42 am #8 Last Edit: Apr 14, 2016, 06:15 am by galacticprobe
Tony, I didn't mean to cause or start any confusion. I was only trying to re-establish the link to lespaceplie's plans and answer Jamie's question. (And I alway... well, almost always... put in the caveat "Someone will correct me if I'm wrong", and when I do, I usually mention you as being the one that would correct me when it comes to the original Brachacki props.) Now I admit I should have looked more closely at the plans in the link.

The 15" tall by 12" wide measure I originally gave came from these plans...
TARDIS-1963(original).jpg
...which I'd gotten - I thought - from the same link. And as you can see in this drawing (from 2008 according to the file I have, which has a lot more measurements on it), it does show the height of the panel recesses as being 15 inches tall. The other measurements all appear not to have changed when compared to those on the drawing with the blue measurements; only that height of the recesses is different. So, you can see where I went wrong. I simply looked at an older revision (with the red measurements) and had that "15-inches-even" in my head.

I guess I just slipped a little - it happens - and as a result of that slip I got my proper tongue-lashing. ;) ;D (Would it be safe to say that the red measurement drawing would be safe to use for some of the other measurements not listed on the blue measurement drawing - such as the enlarged drawing of the window frame muntons?)

Maybe, instead, I should have posted this drawing someone did with regard to the corner posts:
TARDIS_Post1.jpg
This one is from 2011 according to the date on my file... at least that's when I downloaded it (and I just found it after looking deeper into my Brachacki folder - which is getting rather full and may need to be sorted into sub-folders). Granted, the measurements are in millimeters, but any on-line metric converter can give you the imperial measurements once you type in the metric ones.

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

tony farrell

Apr 14, 2016, 11:07 am #9 Last Edit: Apr 14, 2016, 11:23 am by Tony Farrell
Quote from: galacticprobe on Apr 14, 2016, 05:42 am
The 15" tall by 12" wide measure I originally gave came from these plans...
TARDIS-1963(original).jpg
...which I'd gotten - I thought - from the same link. And as you can see in this drawing (from 2008 according to the file I have, which has a lot more measurements on it), it does show the height of the panel recesses as being 15 inches tall. The other measurements all appear not to have changed when compared to those on the drawing with the blue measurements; only that height of the recesses is different.

Actually Dino, in 'your' very old drawing, the widths of the corner posts are half an inch too narrow as well!

Quote from: galacticprobe on Apr 14, 2016, 05:42 am
I guess I just slipped a little - it happens - and as a result of that slip I got my proper tongue-lashing. ;) ;D

If my post came across as a tongue lashing, that wasn't my intention and I apologise. I simply want people to have the most accurate and up-to-date information: To misquote Jon Pertwee from Day of the Daleks, "this won't do at all, we can't have two sets of plans running around!"

Quote from: galacticprobe on Apr 14, 2016, 05:42 am
(Would it be safe to say that the red measurement drawing would be safe to use for some of the other measurements not listed on the blue measurement drawing - such as the enlarged drawing of the window frame muntons?)


Er, no.... The fact that the panel recesses have been incorrectly stated as 15" means that the window frames are also too short in this old version as well (though the figure of 3/4 of an inch for the widths of the stiles and cross-rails is correct).
Quote from: galacticprobe on Apr 14, 2016, 05:42 am
Maybe, instead, I should have posted this drawing someone did with regard to the corner posts:
TARDIS_Post1.jpg
This one is from 2011 according to the date on my file... at least that's when I downloaded it (and I just found it after looking deeper into my Brachacki folder - which is getting rather full and may need to be sorted into sub-folders). Granted, the measurements are in millimeters, but any on-line metric converter can give you the imperial measurements once you type in the metric ones.
Dino.


Haha, you should see the state of my laptop's filing "system" - the word system is singularly inappropriate! In all seriousness though, I'd delete the 2008 version of the Brachacki Police Box 'plans' - the proportions are fundamentally incorrect.

I know a lot of people use the formula 25 millimeters per inch but this results in what used to be called a "metric foot" (300 mm). I've always used 25.4 mm per inch as the conversion factor which results in the true value of 304.8 mm per imperial foot.

As an aside, you'll find that the studio floor plans for season 14's wooden console room are expressed in metric feet rather than imperial feet (which probably goes someway to explaining why some of our information regarding this version of the Tardis' interior doesn't quite tally with what was built - particularly the size of the circular platform on which the wooden console stands).

As a second aside, Nathan/Warmcanofcoke (why do I always want to put spacings in "warm can of coke"?!   :)) has asked if I'd like start a topic on the wooden console room as well as the Mike Kelt console. I genuinely like the wooden console room but I have no interest (design-wise) in anything after Season 14 (and, in any case, Lespaceplie seems to have the Kelt Console 'pinned down'  :)). I want to finish the Kenneth Sharp Console first and - as a third aside - I've been driven to the conclusion that it was a good two inches taller than previously thought - but, more of that elsewhere!

T

Rassilons Rod

Apr 14, 2016, 12:14 pm #10 Last Edit: Apr 14, 2016, 12:15 pm by rassilonsrod
Quote from: Tony Farrell on Apr 14, 2016, 11:07 am
As an aside, you'll find that the studio floor plans for season 14's wooden console room are expressed in metric feet rather than imperial feet


Bugger!  :o
In the cities in the streets there's a tension you can feel,
The breaking strain is fast approaching, guns and riots.
Politicians gamble and lie to save their skins,
And the press get fed the scapegoats,
Public Enema Number One.

lespaceplie

The 6" posts version of the drawing is my old one. It predates better knowledge about the corner posts. For that matter, our generally very useful prop expert and former member, purpleblancmange, really muddied the waters years ago by flatly stating the 6" was the right starting point for the posts. How wrong that was! In fact, you should get a load of my late 1990s version of the S18 box. It's correctly proportioned but with 6" posts making it smaller that the real prop! Scarfwearer actually built by those plans.

tony farrell

Quote from: rassilonsrod on Apr 14, 2016, 12:14 pm
Quote from: Tony Farrell on Apr 14, 2016, 11:07 am
As an aside, you'll find that the studio floor plans for season 14's wooden console room are expressed in metric feet rather than imperial feet


Bugger!  :o


Oh Marc - you should have realised this  ;) : It was you that pointed me to the Facebook Group which discussed having BBC metric feet rule(r)s! It's only a short 'hop' from that realisation to finding out that BBC Television Centre's studios were planned in metric feet and that the grid lines on the studio floor plans represent 600 mm by 600 mm and not two imperial feet by two imperial feet! So the wooden Tardis set was actually fractionally smaller than a casual glance at the studio floor plans would first suggest.

Quote from: lespaceplie on Apr 14, 2016, 03:43 pm
The 6" posts version of the drawing is my old one. It predates better knowledge about the corner posts. For that matter, our generally very useful prop expert and former member, purpleblancmange, really muddied the waters years ago by flatly stating the 6" was the right starting point for the posts. How wrong that was! In fact, you should get a load of my late 1990s version of the S18 box. It's correctly proportioned but with 6" posts making it smaller that the real prop! Scarfwearer actually built by those plans.


I'm not in any way 'knocking' your old plans Lespaceplie, I'm just saying that this version has been superseded by - as you say - 'better knowledge'. If the old version is still 'live' somewhere here on TB, it might be better to update the thread concerned so that we don't have contradictory plans floating about.

As regards purpleblancmange 'muddying the waters', it wouldn't be the first time - I remember that when in 2013, the Radio Times revealed the existence of the duplicate Police Box doors, purple said that he'd known about these all along but had gone along with the mistaken rumour that the Police Box prop was split down for the Pilot Episode to allow Barbara to directly enter the ship through the Police Box doors.

Still, purple isn't here to defend himself; his motives were - I'm sure - quite genuine and we must all acknowledge his great contribution to this site. But, knowledge and understanding moves on and no-one has a monopoly on that knowledge. There's no harm in double-checking what someone has said, if you agree, great; if you don't agree say so. Everyone should be be man or woman enough to accept polite constructive criticism.  :)

T


lespaceplie

I wish I could kill off all the obsolete plans floating around out there - quite a few of which I'm responsible for. To date I've only updated links, but there are crumbs of the past versions littered all over. That and I love when new info surfaces that can refine and sometimes radically change things. I'm not at all defending the old plans. They're just part of the journey.

tony farrell