Hartnell plans available and ready for revision

Started by lespaceplie, Jun 17, 2006, 08:52 pm

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fivefingeredstyre

Jan 26, 2017, 01:05 am #150 Last Edit: Jan 26, 2017, 01:26 am by fivefingeredstyre
Quote from: Tony Farrell on Jan 25, 2017, 10:19 pm
D1-001A reduced size for TB.jpg


IMG_0390_zpsdqlsvgxn.jpg
compare the prop to a shot taken during production and you can see that the inside of the box is apparently not illuminated when it is in use. I'd be willing to bet that the box isn't actually deliberately illuminated internally in the first picture, rather we could be seeing an effect of the rear doors of the prop being left open light coming through from behind. Sadly the picture cuts short showing the full lighting rig above the prop to be completely sure, it would explain why the prop doesn't appear to be lit during filming.

I bloody wish we still had the episode so we could check for sure...  >:(

kert gantry

Might be worth checking the Marco Polo telesnaps. The episode caption for Roof Of The World was put in over a big fat close-up of the TARDIS doors.

Would've been particularly odd to have the interior illuminated for that episode as the ship was supposed to be kaput.

fivefingeredstyre

good thinking Batman! :D

IMG_0391_zps4oqmeuxb.jpg

Difficult to say for sure, but it's not looking that illuminated in the shot...

galacticprobe

Jan 26, 2017, 07:58 am #153 Last Edit: Jan 26, 2017, 08:09 am by galacticprobe
Referring back to 'Reign of Terror' and the model vs. full prop materialization scene, besides the Top Signs flashing with the roof lamp, the door windows also flash with everything else. So it is at least plausible that a model TARDIS was used for the materialization (and I believe dematerialization at the end).

This struck me as odd. At first I thought the lamp had failed and they had a stagehand inside the prop with a great bright torch switching it on and off while he aimed it at the roof lamp, and the light splatter was bleeding through the Top Signs and the door windows. I know later in the prop's life we can catch glimpses of light coming in through the Top Signs as the actors enter or exit the TARDIS, but up until 'Reign' I don't remember seeing any light in the Top Signs or the door windows (drop-down blanking plates - or what we in the States call "block-outs" - not withstanding).

I know recording time was precious to the production, but if the director saw flashing light coming through the doors during the materialization sequence in 'Reign', surely he would have yelled "CUT!" and had the block-outs put in place before continuing to record. Then there are those other details that Ian pointed out: the different lamp housing, clean window frames; and Steve spotting the poor lettering quality on the Top Signs. (So perhaps that sequence was a model shot, with one large light inside the model's body placed as close to the roof lamp as possible, but because it was a model and all open inside, light just spilled out through all translucent openings?)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

ionsith

Quote from: fivefingeredstyre on Jan 26, 2017, 01:25 am
good thinking Batman! :D

IMG_0391_zps4oqmeuxb.jpg

Difficult to say for sure, but it's not looking that illuminated in the shot...

The window frames are looking very white and clean there... Are we sure that is the full prop and not a model shot?

Rassilons Rod

That's definitely the full size.

First of all, there's too much detail and secondly there's this shot of the full box in the studio.

d01-1d-083.jpg
In the cities in the streets there's a tension you can feel,
The breaking strain is fast approaching, guns and riots.
Politicians gamble and lie to save their skins,
And the press get fed the scapegoats,
Public Enema Number One.

fivefingeredstyre

I wondered that as well, so I had a look to see if I could find anymore snaps. I couldn't find copies of the single frames (although they are out there, somewhere) but I did find a 'contact sheet' with the whole episode on it. It looks like Hartnell and Russell emerge from the TARDIS as soon as the captions finish, so I'd say it's the actual prop...


fivefingeredstyre

Quote from: galacticprobe on Jan 26, 2017, 07:58 am
Referring back to 'Reign of Terror' and the model vs. full prop materialization scene, besides the Top Signs flashing with the roof lamp, the door windows also flash with everything else. So it is at least plausible that a model TARDIS was used for the materialization (and I believe dematerialization at the end).
Theres no actual dematerialisation sequence in the last episode. It's just a still photo caption that cuts to the TARDIS interior sequence.

It looks like the photo was taken on the same stage (as a lot of the tree - but not all - of the tree positions in the background match up. Just a guess but it could be that the model set was rebuilt a few weeks later to take the photo for the final episode

ionsith

On the one hand it looks far too accurate to be a model, but on the other why use the full prop for a materialisation but then switch to the 'porch doors' for the following scene?

fivefingeredstyre

I'd guess it was because they didn't want to halt filming to do the roll back and mix required for the TARDIS landing effects shot. It would be easier to do this as a pre-filmed insert and carry on with recording in a single take.

They don't just cut to Hartnell closing the doors either, here is quite a lengthy TARDIS interior sequence between the landing and the Doctor closing the doors outside the TARDIS.

I'd also say that the amount of foliage around the TARDIS when it lands would make the seamless removal of the full sized prop between materialisation takes difficult without disturbing the shrubs...

tony farrell

Jan 26, 2017, 01:23 pm #160 Last Edit: Jan 26, 2017, 01:36 pm by Tony Farrell
Sorry chaps - can we take a step back please?

First, we are supposed to be discussing the dimensions of the original Tardis and my comment about being able to see light through the sign-box in Reign of Terror was meant as an 'aside' as a potential explanation as to why the top panel had become crooked i.e., the box might have been altered at the time "Reign" was recorded to allow light to pass through the sign-box which up to this point hadn't been seen before.

In this context, I used the "Marco Polo" photo to show that the interior of the box was illuminated purely to show that no light could be seen through the front sign-box at this early stage in the props history whereas in "Reign" it can! With respect to this discussion, the actual reason why the interior of the box is illuminated in the Marco Polo photo and not illuminated in the transmitted episode is irrelevant. The point is you can't see any light through the sign-box and as Marc says, it is a picture of the full-sized prop!

Now - if I may - can I turn to Steve's point that the materialisation scene in "Reign" was possibly a model shot which was used to avoid having to move the trees and bushes out of the way when positioning the Tardis. Sorry chaps, but hang on here, to anyone reading in the future, possibly over the course of the last few posts, now seems to have become definitely!

So now, if you think about what's been written, all of a sudden, we have the appearance of a brand new model which no-one has ever heard of and a model which has to be the most accurate ever built in the history of Dr Who!

Now, I'm not being rude (and I hope I don't come across as such), but this is a hell of a leap in logic which isn't supported by the evidence.

In terms of how the materialisation/dematerialisation effect was achieved in the black & white era, my understanding  is this: A photo of the set without the Tardis was taken and then the Tardis was moved into place. The cameras were then started and an electrician switched the lamp on. The images from the camera recording the 'flashing' Tardis were then mixed with the output of the camera which was pointed at the photograph of the Tardis-less set - the output of the camera pointing at the photo being gradually turned down whilst the output of the camera pointing at the 'flashing' Tardis was gradually turned up. The resultant mix causes the Tardis to fade into existence:

reign1.png
reign2.png
reign3.png
reign4.png
reign5.png
reign6.png

If you look at these pictures as the Tardis materialises, it is obvious that the branches change position as the outputs of the two cameras are changed/mixed - in the middle pictures the branches behind the Tardis no longer line up with the branches that can be seen through the transparent Tardis. The tree in front of the box moves its own width to the left as well - in the middle two screen-grabs, you can see that there are two transparent trees side-by-side as the two images are mixed.

I'm sorry Steve this isn't some hyper-accurate model that was only ever used on this one occasion - this is the full-sized Tardis prop. And, it's the full-sized Tardis prop that has had a hole cut behind the front sign-box to allow the light to shine through!  

I hope this reply doesn't come across as being terse - it isn't meant to be. :)

T

ionsith

No, you are right to bring us back on topic, Tony. My struggle with this had been that all models used in the 60's bore little resemblance to the Brachaki prop. I did wonder if maybe the use of the porch doors (which wouldn't have had a backing plate I assume) would explain the light coming through the sign box, but i can't see a split in the sign box when it's materialising.

tony farrell

Jan 26, 2017, 01:48 pm #162 Last Edit: Jan 26, 2017, 01:49 pm by Tony Farrell
Thanks Ian - as I say, I hope not to have come across as being rude; that definitely wasn't the intention!

There was a myth doing the rounds a few years back which said that the front of the full-sized Tardis prop was detachable and that this detachable section was used in the Pilot Episode. We now know that the Tardis porch was a completely separate unit to the main prop and that the main prop was a solid, one-piece prop, which didn't have a detachable front section.

Presumably there was a recording break in "Reign" after the materialisation sequence to allow the Tardis to be moved and the Tardis Porch to be put in place. Either that or the Tardis Porch was in a different section of the woodland set and recorded from a different camera position thus creating the illusion that the woodland set was bigger than it actually was.

T

fivefingeredstyre

Not terse at all mate. However no one has said this is a definitive explanation, rather another possible explanation on my part as to why we suddenly get a flashing lintle sign which we've never seen before, and the like of which we wouldn't see again for a number of years.

I don't think that this would is a "Hyper-Accurate" model either. As I mentioned earlier, the reason why I think it might be a model is the observation of the marked poorer quality of the lintle sign writing.

I agree that the branches change position during takes; which I put down to the removal/placement of the prop/model (Depending upon which way around they filmed the effects shot)

Given that in the early days the show was generally recorded as 'live', effects shots such as this were often pre-recorded and inserted into play as part of the camera recording process. Model footage is the only logical explanation I can come up as to why the team would go to all the trouble of setting up the shot and then changing to the porch doors for the full filming; however it might well be that they used the full sized prop. As it stands at the moment, we just don't know for sure.

The only sticking point with my theory that I can see is that the box used for the still in final episode looks to be much better quality than the one used in the first episode, and I can't realistically account for why that would be... :D


ionsith

Should this be a topic in its own right? There are niggling questions here that I feel require further investigation, but not to detract from Tony and Gene's work on the Brachacki plans.