Sign Boxes and Clover leaves

[Rassilons Rod]

Can anyone tell me if the Brachacki Box ever had the cloverleaf doorstops at all?

Cheers
-Marc

[purpleblancmange]

Yes, but only after the 1966 refit.

[Rassilons Rod]

Thanks for the quick response This would be prior to "The Smugglers" and after "The War Machines"? (edit: Just found the part in the webpage... It was done for "Evil of the Daleks"

Edit: Just having a  look over your TARDIS library site, and notice that you don't mention Power of the Daleks, where I believe it appeared with no pitched roof.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/photonovels/power/six/800/72.html

-Marc

[purpleblancmange]

With the recent TARDIS prop measuring that I've been doing, it got me thinking about reviewing the designs for all the other TARDIS props going and I amazed myself today by the fact I'd completely over looked a detail on the the original prop.

When it was refitted in 1966, they rebuilt the corner posts (parts of which were taken from the original ones) and then slightly after this event, two metal struts were added to either side of the front central door divider to prevent the now shorter doors from coming too far forward and breaking their hinges...

Now, I always assumed that they were simple rectangular pieces of steal plate measuring an inch wide by two inches high.  They're not!  They actually have a clover leaf detail at their tops with a screw in each of the two side "leaves" - Okay, I know this is such a small detail and probably isn't that important to most people, but to me, this is almost an Earth shattering discovery, especially as no-one else has ever noticed this detail before.  Usually when you see plans for this prop, or people's replica's - they always produce these parts as simple rectangles.  As soon as I can get the scanner working, I'll illustrate what I mean - unless of course someone wants to put up a picture before I do.

Hmm, better go and have a lay down now!

***

An hour or so later:

Can't get to the scanner, so here's a very rough doodle of what I'm talking about.  I mean this IS a doodle - about 10 seconds worth, so forgive the rushed nature of it.

[purpleblancmange]

Okay, here's a capture from The Claws of Axos... the only place I could find a clear(ish) image of these clover leafed door restraints.  You can just about make them out.  What do you reckon they actually are?  I thought maybe they were a trimmed down part of a decorative door hinge, the type you find on garden gates or church doors.

[noIMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/stasia13/ClawsofAxosTARDIS.jpg[/img]

Actually, while I'm here.  I always knew that the original build was a flimsey affair, but as I've been reviewing my old notes and photographs, I've found some more images of the s1 box from above and there's one image where you can clearly see right down the hollow corner post and even see the way they've been built - and it really is odd.  The quarter round detailing is actually a large block with a rounded edge that sits behind the 4" wide main body to the post, in fact these 4" wide parts are nothing more than 1/5" surface cladding.  Hmm, nice and sturdy, I think not.

So, for those of us who turned our noses up at the fact that the 2005 box had visibly hollow posts (until recently) - let's just say that it kind of is true to form!

[purpleblancmange]

Right, I'm completely confused now.  In amongst all my notes I've just found a photocopy (dated June 2003) of the TARDIS from one of the Troughton stories and ringed in red pen are these restraint details.

So if I already knew about this, how come I have absolutely no recolection of making this particular note?  Maybe I did it really late at night and forgot.

Instead of having about three folders full of drawings, notes, photographs and scribbles scattered around the house, plus many A4 envelopes stuffed with similar material, I ought to collate it all into the one place and sort through it.  Mind you, I've never been one for a proper filing system, I work on the "Carpet System" - several piles of stuff piled high on the floor.  It kind of works for me, at least I more or less know where stuff is... much to the wife's disdain for me making the place look untidy.

[purpleblancmange]

Here's another image taken from the same story, this time you should see the detail clearer than before.  Now here's something, there's been conjecture that the front signs are black lettering on a white background... but it's not.  Look closely and you'll see it's actually a frosted background with transparent lettering.  Notice the scratches to the surface of the sign near the C of "public" - it looks black, like the lettering.

[noIMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/stasia13/PertweeTARDISdetail.jpg[/img]

All the original signs from 1963 were white lettering stuck to the surface of a dark blue, more or less black translucent perspex.  However, around the time of the refit in 1966, the front sign was replaced (possibly due to being damaged when removed - slid out from its housing - for the refit) with the one shown here and by the time this photograph was taken, the frosted black "flood" background had faded to this greyish tone.

If you look at the lettering on the front, you will notice that you can actually see through it to the underside of the roof.  Looking through the doors to the rear Police Box sign, you can clearly see the slightly faded dark blue (black) translucent plastic with the white lettering.  Obviously because the light is coming in from the back, the white lettering is in shadow, making them look black here.  This is one of the few decent pictures that proves this point.  I'll keep hunting around for that decent picture of this from around the time of the refit.

Catch you later.

[Mark]

When the rift occured, were the windows replaced because they don't look anything like they did during Hartnell's ownership?

[purpleblancmange]

Yeah, only the front windows were changed - but a short while after the refit, I'll have to check my notes for exactly when.

[Mark]

No don't go to any trouble Purple, I was only curious!

[purpleblancmange]

Some more pictures for you to look at:



Ark in Space:  Right side face of the TARDIS.



Ark in Space:  Right side face of the TARDIS detail shot - here you can see that the back wall has been restored.  It was removed during Trought's Seeds of Death, probably for repairs, then replaced shortly afterwards.



Ark in Space:  Right side face, signs illuminated - white lettering stuck onto the surface of the now faded dark blue translucent perspex.  Because the lights are on, the lettering is thrown into shadow, making the text look black.



Pyramids of Mars:  Right side face of the TARDIS, windows illuminated.

[DoctorWho8]

Purple, here are some screen caps I made (similar to what you showed) in regards to the same discussion in the TARDIS Builders Guild last month.
[noimg]http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/9329/arktardis18dx.jpg[/img]
Here's the signs not backlit


Here's the sign backlit.


On the left side, you can clearly see on the wall the light coming from the front sign and the crack in the doors.  You can see the words are in black and the area around them is the light from behind the sign.  Therefore the front sign had black-ish letters with a slightly frosted background that still allowed light to come through.
Bill "the Doctor" Rudloff

[purpleblancmange]

Bill. yeah I've known about precisely that shot for quite a long time and I'm still trying to explain it, but it just doesn't tally with the other evidence.  If you look at the large detail shot that I posted, you can clearly see the front sign's lettering is actually completely clear, being able to see the roof through them.  The background flood is really insipid, almost as if they lightly sprayed paint over the plastic with the lettering still there, then removed the lettering.

If worst comes to the worst, I'll make up two sign variants, age them to with an inch of their life and fit them to my prop and backlight them to see how the light is affected.

If it turns out that the front signs are with stuck on letters, then all that's happened is that this sign has aged more than the others (with all of them having the stuck on lettering).  If the front is the other way around, then it was changed at some point around the refit.

[ep34042]

Hi Purple,
Looking at your 'Claws of  Axos' close-up, do you think its possible that the front and rear signs were re-made at the same time? Possible during the '66 refit? I say this because the lettering in the rear sign is exactly the same as the new front sign, and very different to the original signage that still remains on the side walls. If you look at the large gap between the 'X' and the edge of the sign on the rear, it matches exactly the gap between the 'X' and the edge on the front sign. Earlier pictures of the lettering on the original Hartnell - white on black - was also less condensed and filled the sign with much less space on each side of the 'P' and 'X' . Thoughts?

[purpleblancmange]

Hi Purple,
Looking at your 'Claws of  Axos' close-up, do you think its possible that the front and rear signs were re-made at the same time? Possible during the '66 refit? I say this because the lettering in the rear sign is exactly the same as the new front sign, and very different to the original signage that still remains on the side walls. If you look at the large gap between the 'X' and the edge of the sign on the rear, it matches exactly the gap between the 'X' and the edge on the front sign. Earlier pictures of the lettering on the original Hartnell - white on black - was also less condensed and filled the sign with much less space on each side of the 'P' and 'X' . Thoughts?

I'm pretty certain that all the signs are original bar the front one, look at the ref pix and you'll see that the sides and back signs are lettering stuck to the plastic.  In terms of the side sign, the spacing that you mentioned is different because they are the original graphics set into rebuilt sign boxes.  When the refit came, the boxes geometary changed making the side walls norrower.  the whole shape of the side sign boxes are now different - essentially they used the original ones but adapted them a little, as a result, the hole got smaller, so the graphic looked more cramped than they did before.

Tell you what, it's be far easier to explain all this if we were all to meet up, that way I can actually point at things.  Not that this is likely to happen any time soon.