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St. John Ambulance Logos

Started by galacticprobe, Mar 12, 2015, 05:00 pm

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galacticprobe

Mar 12, 2015, 05:00 pm Last Edit: Sep 08, 2018, 07:11 pm by galacticprobe
So I know this has taken far longer than I'd promised, and I had gotten everything finished, but it took a while to find a place to host the files. Now that I've had some help with that I've created this table to consolidate the St. John logo info.

Borrowing some wording from scarfwearer in a similar thread:
This thread is a reference to cover the varying appearance of the St. John Ambulance Badge/Logo that has appeared on the TARDIS door throughout the show's run, as well as in the two Peter Cushing feature films and on Met Boxes (so as not to neglect our Met Box historians and fans).

By all means contribute reference information so I can adjust the Table as needed to keep things as accurate as possible.

Some of the "Original Images" in the Table are rather poor (most notably the one for the Cushing box), and could use a better version if someone can find one.

Original ImageYears SeenDescriptionReproductions: JPG and PDF
StJohnLogo(MetBoxOriginal).jpg

StJohnLogoMetBoxOriginal)-02.jpg
Actual Metropolitan Police Box Badge, The Original

First appearance, 1930/1931

Final Appearance, mid-1970s

The top image is shown in situ, probably on a box that's undergoing repaint or restoration. The bottom image is a badge that is "new old-stock", meaning that it is an original badge intended for use on a Met Box, but for some reason never made it onto a box. Therefore, it is still "new" in that it has never been used, but "old-stock" because it was made ca. 1930s.
This is the original Met Box Badge that appeared on the pre-World War II boxes, and probably on many of the early post-War Boxes (up until around 1950). These had four countersunk mounting holes at the "12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock" positions. (The repro will have these screw holes marked with grey circles.) The exact procedures for making these badges varied over time, but for the most part was a Porcelain process. First the steel blank was cut or stamped out of thick sheet, drilled and prepared: smoothing and rounding all edges and drilling all holes; then the metal was de-oxidized and degreased. A base slurry of water and powdered glass was then sprayed or brushed on both sides and all edges, and fired at over 1,472F (800C), turning it grey. Then a top coat (most likely black) was applied over this (again on all sides and edges) and fired at a lower temperature: hot enough to fuse with the base coat, but not hot enough to remelt the base coat and mix colors. Finally, the graphics layers were applied and fired (one for each color, in this case white), with the white particles being electrostatically picked up via charged plates in the pattern of the design (i.e. circles, arrowheads, animals) and then deposited on the oppositely-charged sign plate; this was finally fired at a still lower temperature to fuse the white layer both to itself and the previous layers (the deposition process). These earlier badges looked more irregular as a result of both the thickness of the layers and the deposition process. Many of the badges developed a slightly "domed" shape from the heat during all of the firings. Like its (possibly more well-known) variant successors, this badge was 6 inches (15.2 cm) in diameter (by Met Box plans, sometimes varying by about 1/16th-inch from the layers of coatings).Met Box Badge, Original, JPG

Met Box Badge, Original, PDF

NOTE: This is the pre-WWII original badge. As no two were alike due to their fabrication method, each badge had its own imperfections and idiosyncrasies. The replicas created in the links above are partially idealistic, yet I tried to capture some of the imperfections that were in some of the images of different 4-hole pre-War badges to make them as realistic as possible. Remember, these badges were 3-D, unlike the post-War 2-hole versions that were screen-enamel-painted (see Variant 1 below). So these were thicker, and as the ceramics were fired nothing came out perfect.
StJohnLogo(MetBoxVariant1).jpgFirst appearance: ca.1950;

Final appearance, ca. mid-1970s.

Actual Metropolitan Police Box Badge, Variant 1

This is one variant of the logo found on Metropolitan Police Boxes (at least in the London area). It is virtually the same logo that was used on the Cushing Box (see below) and measured 6 inches/15.2 cm in diameter. The image to the left shows it much better, and this badge is on a Met Box (a Mark 5) that was undergoing restoration. (The scraped areas on the badge's edges show the "topcoat" layer was white over the grey base coat, meaning the "graphics" layer would have been the black - at least in this instance.) Note that the animals are much smaller than those on the TV Series' props (New Series) and had only a small black disc at the bottom where the cross on the New Series' logos would be; also note the position of the screws holding the badge in place. The Cushing and post-War variant badges are not cast, porcelain badges like the original. These seem to have been made by stamping out a steel blank, but then using the more common silk screened enamel paint process (possibly baked at lower temps to cure) rather than the more expensive high heat Porcelain process.Note: Since this logo is identical to the one used on the Cushing Box (again, see below), the links take you to the same files; they're not incorrect links. (I didn't want to leave this cell with only a note, and no links.)

Met Box (Variant 1), JPG

Met Box (Variant 1), PDF

(I did the best I could with these to get them as close as possible since, as with the Original badge, each one was slightly different; so these are a sort of "idealized" version of the real badge.)
StJohnLogo(MetBoxVariant2).jpgDates: UNKNOWN

St. John Ambulance Car Badge (Metropolitan Police Box Badge, Variant 2)

You'll find an actual image of this version in a post further down this thread.
This is another variant of the St. John Badge, though it was used on cars, and not on Police Boxes. (So far there are no car photos in the http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?board=20.0 Reference Section. I've only included it here because of rob49152's hard work on creating one in this thread (http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=5977.0), and a lot of people seem to like that "exploded cross" on the bottom.) The big difference on this badge, as mentioned, is that exploded cross, with each arm standing by itself as they surround the black dot in the center.
This badge was also a metal plate, probably 6 inches (15.2 cm) in diameter, and held in place with two screws like the Variant 1 above.

Met Box (Variant 2), JPG

Met Box (Variant 2), PDF

Again, this is a St. John Badge that was used on cars, and not on Police Boxes.
StJohnLogo(1963-1966).jpg1963-1966 (Classic Series - Seasons 1-3: "The Hartnell Logo")

First appearance, "An Unearthly Child" (1963, pilot and broadcast versions);

Final appearance, "The War Machines" (1966).
Plain logo. No outer border, no wording or animals; logo appears to be a sticker; in several stories the edges are lifting away from the door panel (most noticeable in "The Space Museum"). The logo's diameter is said to have been 4.5 inches (11.4 cm).Hartnell (Season 1-3), JPG

Hartnell (Season 1-3), PDF
StJohnLogo(1965CushingFilm).jpg1965-1966 (The two Peter Cushing feature films)

First appearance, "Dr. Who and the Daleks" (1965);

Final appearance, "Daleks - Invasion Earth: 2150 A.D." (1966 - unless you count its cameo in 'The New Avengers' episode "Target" (1976) where the entire prop gets blown to bits)

Note: I placed this one here because, chronologically, this is when we first saw an actual Met Box Badge variant on a "TARDIS" prop.
While not "canon" to the Classic or New Series, these were still 'Doctor Who' films and featured a time travelling machine called "TARDIS" which resembled a more traditional Met Box than one of the TV Series' props. And it had a St. John logo on the door as well. This logo was the more familiar (Variant 1) logo that one would find on a real post-World War II Police Box. It had the full wording and was 6 inches (15.2 cm) in diameter. It was also a metal "badge/plate" that was held in place by two screws, one at the "3 o'clock" and one at the "9 o'clock" positions. (The repro has these screw holes marked with grey circles.) If someone can find a clearer image of this logo, please let me know via PM, or e-mail, and I'll replace the not-so-great image with the better one.Cushing TARDIS version, JPG

Cushing TARDIS version, PDF
StJohnLogo(2010).jpg2010 New Series: The Matt Smith Years ("The Series 5 Logo")

First appearance, the final scenes of "The Eleventh Hour" (April 2010);

Final appearance, "The Big Bang" (June 2010).
The logo returns in the Matt Smith era. It has more details than its predecessor. There is a black border around the outer edge. The wording is an abbreviated version of the full logo. This version was hand-painted directly onto the TARDIS door. The diameter is said to be 5 inches (12.7 cm), which will be the norm from here on.Matt Smith (Series 5), JPG

Matt Smith (Series 5), PDF
StJohnLogo(2011-2013).jpg2011-2012 New Series: The Matt Smith Years ("The Series 6-7a Logo")

First appearance, "A Christmas Carol" (December 2010);

Final appearance, "The Angels Take Manhattan" (2012).
Once again, as with the Hartnell logo, there is no border around the outer edge. The lettering is a little larger and the cross at the bottom is much thicker than its previous version. The animals don't have as much detail to them as in the previous version. Once again the logo was hand-painted directly onto the door. Diameter: 5 inches (12.7 cm).Matt Smith (Series 6-7a), JPG

Matt Smith (Series 6-7a), PDF
StJohnLogo(2013).jpg2013 New Series: The Matt Smith Years ("The Series 7b Logo")

First appearance, "The Bells of Saint John" (March 2013);

Final appearance, "The Time of the Doctor" (December 2013).
The new logo for Series 7b had the black border returned to the outer edge. The lettering was smaller as was the cross at the bottom. The inner black disc was larger, but the arrowheads were about the same size as always. The animals were more like those on the Series 5 version. The logo was still hand-painted directly onto the TARDIS door. Diameter: 5 inches (12.7 cm).Matt Smith (Series 7b), JPG

Matt Smith (Series 7b), PDF
StJohnLogo(2014).jpg2014-2017 (New Series: "The Capaldi Logo")

First appearance, final scenes of "The Time of the Doctor" (but officially? "Deep Breath", 2014);

Final appearance, "Twice Upon A Time" (2017)
This new version is identical to the previous logo except for the addition of the white circle near the outer edge of the center black disc; this gives the logo a thin black ring around the center like the logo on a real Police Box would have (see up top). Unlike the previous New Series logos, this version appears to be a sticker (like the Hartnell logo); note the slight peeling/lifting of the sticker at the "8 o'clock" position. Diameter: 5 inches (12.7 cm).Capaldi (Series 8-10), JPG

Capaldi (Series 8-10), PDF


So that's it for the St. John Ambulance Logo Table, at least for now. Just click on the link for the high-res, appropriately-sized JPG or PDF in the Reproduction column to download the file so you can have a sign-maker print out a sticker, print your own, or (if you've got a really steady hand and a good eye) use it as a template for painting your logo onto your TARDIS. (The repro logos may appear large on your screen when viewed at actual size, but at least on my computer their properties say their dimensions are appropriate for their respective originals.)

Also, many thanks to deck5 for hosting these files so everyone that would like one can download them, and another thank you to hb88banzai for providing the image of the 4-hole mount pre-WWII badge and much of the historical information!

So, all Met Box Researchers, keep that information flowing! It will only help improve the quality of this Table.

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

Senseidale

Aug 07, 2015, 07:22 pm #1 Last Edit: Aug 07, 2015, 07:24 pm by Senseidale
Whist in my trip to Jersey (CI) I drove past a building with  St Johns logo with no outer border, wording or animals sorry no picture, Image from Internet I was taken a bit by surprise.
DaleSJA-device-new-60.jpg
"In 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who wasn't important"

Bob's your Uncle

The TARDIS that I'm building is meant to replicate the Crich Police Box, but I intend to have a St. John's logo on the door, just because.  ;D

I'm leaning toward the "Variant 2" style because I like the "Exploding Cross" detail. But I'm a bit confused, what makes it a ""Possible" Metropolitan Police Box Badge"?
Where did the design come from? Is there an "official" logo that was used during the Crich Box era?

Dino, thank you for this, and your timing is perfect. I've been searching the site trying to decide on which logo to use, you've my my decision a lot easier.


Greg.
"Listen. All I have to do is dive into another dimension, find the time traveler, help her escape the monster, get home before the entire dimension collapses, and Bob's your Uncle."

'Hide'  S07 E09

Mark

Hi Dale, of the image you posted was the one you are referring to, then that's the current offering. The modern logo is just that, a Maltese Cross.

Greg, there is no evidence (Me and Matt looked for ages) that the Crich box ever had one but if it had I would guess it would have been similar to the ones in the 2nd photo to the bottom. I'm no expert but maybe it helps a little.

galacticprobe

Jan 31, 2016, 04:55 am #4 Last Edit: Jan 31, 2016, 05:15 am by galacticprobe
Quote from: Bob's your Uncle on Jan 30, 2016, 05:55 am
I'm leaning toward the "Variant 2" style because I like the "Exploding Cross" detail. But I'm a bit confused, what makes it a ""Possible" Metropolitan Police Box Badge"?
Where did the design come from? Is there an "official" logo that was used during the Crich Box era?

Greg, that "Variant 2" version is just what it says in the Description Column: one that rob49152 worked very diligently on to create a 3-D printed version; the link in that description leads to the thread where he details how he did it. I'm not sure where he got the design for the exploded cross at the bottom, and while it does look really nice, none of our Metropolitan Police Box historians/researchers (such as hb88banzai and Mark, just to name two that immediately come to mind, and there are quite a few others) have ever come across any photographic evidence or documentation showing that this particular design was ever used on an actual Met Box, hence the "Possible" caveat for it; it's also the reason why, unlike the other versions of the logo/badge, "Variant 2" doesn't have an Original Image in Column 1; no one has been able to find any record of this, whether in situ or "new old-stock". (And if Rob hadn't worked so hard to get his replica looking so nice I wouldn't have included it in the table.)

So as of now, "Variant 2" isn't a real St. John Badge, but rather someone's personal project for a great-looking replica created for personal enjoyment rather than historical accuracy. If over time someone does find a (hopefully sharp) photo of a Met Box with that variant of the badge on it, then I'll update the Table accordingly, getting all of the historical information on that variant that I can to add in.

Quote from: Bob's your Uncle on Jan 30, 2016, 05:55 am
Dino, thank you for this, and your timing is perfect. I've been searching the site trying to decide on which logo to use, you've my my decision a lot easier.

You're more than welcome, Greg. I hope others enjoy them as much as you. (I also hope that after this explanation I haven't muddied the waters for you on your decision again!)

As it is, now I've started working on the two Earl's Court variants that were in used: no date for completion on those yet, which is why I haven't added any new rows to the Table. I'll probably hold off on adding those until I get both variants done, and have collected any historical info on them to add to their dates and descriptions. (These things aren't easy to recreate! I wanted that pre-WWII Original to look so close to the many original images I got for references as I could that I ended up having to get new glasses from eye strain!)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

rob49152

I got the 'exploded cross' from an image on the old tardis builders website.
http://tardisboard.proboards.com/thread/315/st-john-ambulance?page=3

it's stated that it's the car badge. But I don't know if that's a correct statement. I just liked it.

Scarfwearer

Everything on the old site is here (or should be).

Here's the topic you were probably referring to:
http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=806
The logo in that thread on the old site is on page 5 of the topic above.

Crispin

rob49152

Ah thanks Crispin. Then you can see in post #9 where I got the idea for the exploded cross at the bottom. Scans from the 1938 edition of First Aid to the Injured had the exploded cross in the style I used for my 3D printed one.

galacticprobe

Apr 15, 2017, 04:20 am #8 Last Edit: Apr 15, 2017, 04:23 am by galacticprobe
This one is mainly for hb88banzai, but would it be safe to amend the Table above to say that version with the exploded cross was more likely a car sticker than a badge used on Police Boxes?

Also, I've gotten a copy of that 1892 original from hb's Photobucket page. I'm not sure when I'll get to it, but if I do I'll think of a name for it - something like "Prototype-1892". That way if I do create a graphic replica for that one I can put it in the Table before the "Original" 1930s version, and not have to rename all of the files, and burden deck5 with having to re-upload the renamed files to his hosting site.

I'm not putting a time limit on myself for this one as I've still got to get moving on the Earl's Court version. (I've got the description info around here somewhere; if I can't find it, I'll e-mail hb and ask him for it again.)

Sorry for taking so long to get these extra variants done, but having a grandkid come along, compounded by increasing back issues and vertigo episodes, tends to slow things down quite a bit. (Sometimes I wonder just how much longer I can keep it going. And then I get all sorts of encouraging posts, e-mails, and PMs, and they really help keep me going. I could name my top supporters, but I don't want to single anyone out or worse, miss anyone out; so I'll just say a huge THANK YOU TO EVERYONE for those. They're appreciated more than I can put into words.)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

The14thDr

Apr 15, 2017, 06:48 am #9 Last Edit: Apr 16, 2017, 07:20 am by The14thDr
There's no rush at all, Dino. I think everyone here will agree with me when I say that your own health takes precedence over getting any sort of project completed, every time.

So no need to apologise, we never give anyone a time limit for posting. :) Just remember our thoughts are with you.

Take care, and the best to you and yours,
The14thDr
"Would you like a jelly baby?"

galacticprobe

Apr 16, 2017, 04:43 am #10 Last Edit: Apr 16, 2017, 04:45 am by galacticprobe
Thanks so much, 14th. That really means a lot to me. :)

Quote from: The14thDr on Apr 15, 2017, 06:48 am
So no need to apologise, we never give anyone a time limit for posting. :)

(And where have I heard that before? ;) You truly are more than my young Padawan now! ;D)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

hb88banzai

Apr 17, 2017, 11:19 am #11 Last Edit: Apr 17, 2017, 11:39 am by hb88banzai
Quote from: galacticprobe on Apr 15, 2017, 04:20 am
This one is mainly for hb88banzai, but would it be safe to amend the Table above to say that version with the exploded cross was more likely a car sticker than a badge used on Police Boxes?

...(snip)


I would think so, though it was a car badge rather than a sticker.

There have been a lot of variations of the seal over the years though, both in design and in execution, so the question is, what do you really want this listing to be - just what was used on Police Boxes and TARDIS's, or what was used there and elsewhere and/or what looks good?

For instance, take a look at this closeup of a sign to a First Aid Post --

Early_St_John_Brigade_First_Aid_Post_Sign-Closeup.PNG

Or this very early Car Badge --

St John Brigade Car Badge - pic 1.jpg

And this one from a bit later --

Badge on wood Ambulance First Aid Box-c1950s.jpg

Or this BR First Aid Box seal --

St John - BR First Aid Box 3 - CloseUp.png

Or this one, which was 6 inches, but with no evidence it was ever used on a Box --

St John Ambulance  6-inch Plaque.JPG

...though ironageman found one on a fence or gate back in the day --

stj.jpg

There are just so many variations, even without including the "Association" vs "Brigade" options.

galacticprobe

Apr 18, 2017, 06:04 am #12 Last Edit: Apr 18, 2017, 06:05 am by galacticprobe
Okay. That was a perfect answer! So with all of those variations this Table could get very carried away. That being the case I think we should stick with only what's been seen on TARDISes and Police Boxes - no cars, fences, First Aid kits, etc.

Since I've got the "exploded" cross version already in the Table, I'll amend it to say it was a badge used on cars only. I won't pull it from the Table because 1) Rob (rob49152) did work hard on creating his 3-D badge and 2) some people do like using it on their boxes to add that personal touch.

I hope that works for everyone.

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

danielc

Can some one make a PDF of the Earl's Court St.John Ambulance sign please?St_John_Plaque-Earls_Court_Type.JPG

galacticprobe

Oct 03, 2017, 07:08 pm #14 Last Edit: Oct 03, 2017, 07:11 pm by galacticprobe
I'm working on that one, danielc. Sorry it's taking so long to get this one completed. Life's sort of gotten in the way most days, at least when I don't get my chance to log on. (Though, I suppose I could suffer through "TARDIS Builders Withdrawal" and stay away from the Forum for a few days and knock this one out.)

I've got a good part of it done already. I just have to get life to cooperate enough so I can get the fracking thing finished (and send a high-res JPG and a PDF copy to deck5 with a request for him to host the files with all those other St. John logos I've created and sent him).

Give me a little longer and I'll get this one done. And thanks for posting that image. I've got a couple of images for reference, but it never hurts to have another!

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"