Interior lighting???

[Volpone]

Nowadays we have photovoltaic sensors.  Motion sensors.  Electronic timers.  All manner of things to turn electricity on and off.  Not so in 1937.  On the police boxes, the signal lamp was tied into the telephone ring tone.  Someone wants you to pick up the phone, the switchboard sends an electric pulse down the line that activates a bell.  Or a lamp in this case.  But what did they do to make the "POLICE BOX" signs come on when the sun went down?  I don't buy that they just left the bulb on 24/7. 

Maybe it was simple.  In the days before electricity they had a lamplighter who went around and lit the gas streetlights when the sun went down.  Did they do that with the police boxes?  Was that part of the beat for the Bobbies, walking their beat, to turn on the light in their neighborhood box[es]?  And turn it off again at the end of the night?  I assume it was, but since there are so many bright folks here, I thought I'd ask. 

[galacticprobe]

Well, from a nautical standpoint, without going through the entire US Lighthouse Service's history (just focusing on the timeframe when electric lamps were put into use), as early as 1926 they started using "automated time clocks" for turning unmanned lights on at night and off in the mornings. (No mention of how those worked, only that they were "automated", but my guess is they also ran on electricity.) Then given that in 1929 US Lighthouse Service representatives attended the first "International Lighthouse Conference" in London for the purpose of an exchange of information, the UK officials would have (at least at that point) learned about time clocks for turning lights on and off. So it's possible that some of that time clock technology could have been used for the Police Box's internal lights as well. (Let's face it, if automating something will save costs, all aspects of government will start using it, and if having a time clock turn Police Box lights on and off meant that no one had to physically go out of their way to do it, it could save money.)

Also, actually as early as 1933 the Lighthouse Service had developed a photo-electric-controlled system for checking the operation of an unmanned electric-powered light. It would trigger an alarm if the lamp went out. So I guess if one was clever enough, that photo-electric system could be adapted for connecting to a Police Box's internal light, with the sensor placed next to one of the windows. Then once the sun had set far enough to trigger the sensor, rather than having the sensor trigger an alarm someplace it could have been wired so that it turned on the internal light (which was probably not bright enough to affect the sensor to the point where it would turn the light off). Then once the sun rose the next morning, the sensor would kick in and turn the interior light off (rather than silencing an alarm). No telling how this would work for really cloudy days, but it would have adjusted better to the changing hours of daylight than the automated time clocks.

So with the exchange of information and evolving technology with lighthouses around the world, the UK would certainly have had access to some sort of either the automated clocks and the photo-electric-controlled system for the Police Boxes by 1937. Just a guess on my part, but it is at least plausible since that photo-electric technology did exist as early as 1936.

Dino.

[hb88banzai]

From the available documentation it would appear that the Met opted for the low tech solution.

Here's the wording in both the 1935 and 1937 editions of the little manual entitled "Telephone Box System - Instructions for Guidance of Police", a copy of which was issued to each officer:

11.  Illumination. - The boxes will be kept lighted inside during the hours of darkness. Detailed instructions on this point will be issued locally.
  No waste of electricity must take place.

If memory serves, the same language was used all the way back to the 1929 first edition of this booklet/manual (my photocopy is buried at the moment). Despite going through multiple editions, surprisingly few changes were made to this document over the years, most being very minor updates as the system matured. In fact, I believe the final 1937/1938 edition of this book continued in routine use through at least the 1950s.

From the above it seems pretty clear that it was up to the officer on the Beat to operate the light switch manually as part of his or her duties. I suppose it only makes sense considering how much use these Boxes saw on a daily basis in their heyday.

Most Boxes were at the borders of two or more Beats, and sometimes two Divisions as well. In looking at a few Beat Books, between all the ring-ins and meal breaks for the regular Beats, Ordinary Patrols, Special Patrols, and visitations by Sergeants each Box was visited at least on the order of once an hour, sometimes as often as every 10 or 15 minutes at certain times of the day. As such, just having an officer be responsible to turn the lights on at dusk and off at dawn was probably more expedient, with one less piece of apparatus to break down.

[alexcutler]

Starcross rescued a Venner timer device (for controlling the lighting like you might control your household heating); see on this thread: https://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=9034.msg113845#msg113845

Whether this was installed from 1929, or introduced much later - in the 1950s, is not clear.

[starcross]

I did get a Venner Timer. I matched it from photos of the interiors. I believe they also have one in the Avoncroft Post.

Anyway it works with switches like any timer. It is set to sunset and sunrise and then left to turn on a 24 hour rotation.

I made the mistake of taking mine apart and all the gears flew apart. Its just set dressing now.

[alexcutler]

I am NOT an expert: but according to these web-sites:

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Venner_Time_Switches
https://www.redtelephonebox.com/items/venner-time-switch-for-red-telephone-boxes/
https://www.ahsoc.org/blog/venner-chance-comes-along-take-it/


If I am reading this right, it would suggest Venner Time switches would not be made domestically available until 1953 in the UK - but the UK was clearly using them in the 1930s from two sources:

1) The Red Telephone Kiosks had large - Venner Solar Timer Switches installed since the 1930s - these actually handled not only the time, but the month - and therefore could fairly accurately keep track of sunset/sunrise for an entire year; there would have probably been expensive intially - but the GPO would not have the manpower to visit each kiosk.  On other hand the Met would have had beat bobbies visiting Police Boxes regularly meaning that a similar investment (in the 1930s) may have been deemed a luxury
2) The Royal Physics Society commissioned Venner for a timing circuit;  this is interesting because there is clearly a written log that shows all Venners commissions up to the late 1930s. 

Although Venner time switches were potentially available in 1911, it took until 1953 before Venner Ltd in the UK was established (probably to distribute them easily and cheaply & therefore profitably).  And before 1937 it seems Venner was largely niche and specialist taking commissions.

So perhaps until the 1950s, Police Box light turning on & off was a matter of beat management, for instance to ensure that every bobby visiting a box would have instructions at certain times of day to turn the lights on or off.

However - if any members have seen the paper Venner log details (existence of which is shown on the AHSOC website), that might contain entries that would prove when the Met did order switches for Police Boxes, and how early they did so.

Of course - there may be flaws in all my conclusions above!! Please improve if you can!

[Andrew Harvey]

I could ask the old fellow I garden for. My first post here was pictures of his police box key and so on. He would remember whether or not they had to turn the lights on and off alright.
  I see him again thursday, I'll make a note here to ask him.....

[alexcutler]

He must be old indeed, if he was doing this in the 1920s/1930s!!!

Starcross seems to have the evidence of Venner Timers in Police Boxes - just not necessarily the date from when they were first installed - or whether it was even common.

The Venner Timer he has shared pictures of appears a mass-produced simply 24-hour timer model that would probably come from the 1950s or later.

But again - I could be seriously mistaken in my conclusions here!

Any info you can get from your old friend would be invaluable!! (including which Police Boxes he covered)

[Andrew Harvey]

I must have mis read something in the thread. The old man is eighty two. He last used his police box in 1966. I think I recall him saying he used the Charing Cross one. But not to worry, I will pick his brain and make notes!

  ( That balance you refer to; Perhaps they could keep lawyers in little boxes....?)

[starcross]

1) The Red Telephone Kiosks had large - Venner Solar Timer Switches installed since the 1930s - these actually handled not only the time, but the month - and therefore could fairly accurately keep track of sunset/sunrise for an entire year; there would have probably been expensive intially - but the GPO would not have the manpower to visit each kiosk.  On other hand the Met would have had beat bobbies visiting Police Boxes regularly meaning that a similar investment (in the 1930s) may have been deemed a luxury

This is the example of the GPO Kiosk Timer.


Avoncroft Museum - City of London - 1953 Pattern PA3 Police pillar
I believe this is Post 33? Its hard to tell after the Database was corrupted after the forum shutdown a few years ago.

[Andrew Harvey]

Okay. As promised today I picked the old fellow's brains on which boxes he used and whether or not he could recall the boxes having the timer switch in them. Unfortunately he couldn't say whether or not they had that faculty, so I imagine as Alexcutler has already supposed the Bobbies must have turned the lights on and off according to who-ever got there first.
  David's ( the old man I garden for ) boxes were the Embankment one under Charing Cross Bridge, The Police Post at Buckingham Palace (which also had a key), He recalls a green shed type box ( with windows- he kept on about that...) at Marble Arch to the rear of Speaker's Corner. And there was a small Police Station at Wellington Arch for ringing in,  he also used the round police box at Trafalgar Square.
  David's key which I put up in my very first post on this site was the one he used in the Embankment box.

  He knew (knows) John Bunker who wrote the book 'The Rise and Fall of the Police Box'. Which we should all of us have a copy of by now! ( Curiously, I am just flipping through that book and on page 57 the is a picture of an early box dated 1930 which seems to show the top tier of the roof in a paler colour).
  As noted previously, David always tells me that to make a really accurate model box I should cover the floor in fag butts and the ringing-in book was swollen with damp and dog-eared.
  Another colleague was named Jack Avery (deceased) and in the garden he has an Oak which Jack sent to him as a small sapling wrapped in tissue paper. It is now over thirty years old and well over twenty five feet tall. We call it the Avery Oak.

  It really is a fine thing to have someone at hand who actually used the real police box. As it goes, I feel very lucky.


  There you go.

 

[alexcutler]

...
  He knew (knows) John Bunker who wrote the book 'The Rise and Fall of the Police Box'. Which we should all of us have a copy of by now! ( Curiously, I am just flipping through that book and on page 57 the is a picture of an early box dated 1930 which seems to show the top tier of the roof in a paler colour).
...

Was the picture (with a different roof) in Black & White? And if so, is there a chance all you are seeing is unpainted concrete? When the early prototype boxes were assembled (the main body in wood, and the roof in concrete) it is possible both halves would appear in very different shades before painting.

Perhaps you could post the picture?

[Andrew Harvey]

I think not Alexcutler, as it looks as if the box is one of the very first wooden ones. But here is the picture as requested.
  Perhaps it was leaded on the top to prevent rain, bird droppings, hurricanes, tornado's, whirlwinds, solar flares, Time winds....



  I had no idea that the roof was a concrete job on these early ones. Blimey, there would have been a fuss if that had collapsed on Liz Sladen's head!

[alexcutler]

Lovely picture.

It is indeed a wooden prototype, and the part that is a different colour is the part that is concrete on those models - I suspect it is not yet painted, but if anyone know better I am sure they will comment shortly!

I think the picture has been catalogued before - but I am not sure how to quickly look up the details.

[alexcutler]

Other signs the box is not fully installed include the lack of a St Johns Ambulance medallion (the first aid kit has probably not been installed yet) - and the lack of an information sign below the telephone panel.