Southbridge Road, Croydon Box

[hb88banzai]

Topics merged.

Yes, great find KB.

Some of the cars are fairly early models, and some look to be late 40's to early 50's, so perhaps circa 1950? The coats certainly look around then.

Shame we don't have a higher res scan of this - it is indeed a very nice shot.

Here's a blowup, nonetheless --

[petewilson]

Another intriguing photo I've discovered......
Now what's going on here?
1) Lock is in the early box type position
2)White windows but not dark blue shell
3) Window Panes are like something based on the Paul McGann Movie Prop!
4) No St. John Ambulance sign

The poster on flicKr had no info apart from maybe in West London about 1955!

[Dalekoracle]

Thats Z21, the Southbridge Road Box, in Croydon.

Its on its traffic island, with its greenery and flowers, and the old style Car Park signage to the left of the traffic island and the pillar box to the rear. (It was the car park sign that made me think immediately of it)

What a marvellous photo!

Mark

[petewilson]

Well Done Mark....
So it is and that white pole to the side is the strange road sign for Southbridge Road!
Maybe it was the interim period before the complete re-fit (the box does look rather tatty here)

Pete

[hb88banzai]

Absolutely beautiful find Pete!

I've merged this with the entry for this Box in the Metbox Catalog.

Yes, we had already seen instances of white windows on the medium to light blue paint schemes, so had concluded that at least for some boxes the white trim preceded the ultra dark royal blue paint. Just fantastic to see a good closeup like this. Great shot of a middle run Mark 2 still in service.

And yeah, talk about wonky windows. Typical Mark 2 pattern, but with a tinted pane top centre. Wonder if they just put the door's window back in upside down after some servicing or cleaning? And again, they almost look more neutral tinted than blue here. They certainly weren't the really saturated medium blue found on the Glasgow Boxes.

I also note that based on the handset the telephone has been switched out for a 700 series from the old modified Ericsson wall unit of the mid-30s (which itself had replaced the candlestick telephone it would have originally been equipped with). This would put the photo more like 1959 or later, though, as I don't think the 706 came out until then. Unless they just replaced the handset, of course (if they were even interchangeable with the old No. 164 handsets). I noted that the 1959 "Park Rangers" film that featured the Wimbledon Common Box had something similar to this type of 700 series handset, but subtly different, though as with here the body of the telephone itself was hidden.

[Dalekoracle]

I've been doing a little colour correction to the photo.

Heres a comparison....



Mark D

[hb88banzai]

Here's my take on a first pass on some colour and contrast correction --

[Dalekoracle]

Thats rather very nice indeed!

The luminosity is still a little high, and the colours a bit too vibrant IMHO. (the flowerbed, grass, German Shepherds coats (far too ginger in places)  and policemen's skin tones all need to be muted slightly)

Factor in the following too... the photo has been taken mid summer, later in the day (shadows and foliage are the obvious give away) Obviously a clear day too.

What will help is to find a photo with similar conditions, and a corresponding reference point (so, the pillar box for example) and cross reference colours between the two.

Given the wealth of images on the boards here, it would be great to get some other archive images polished and looking as they should.

Lovely photo and great results so far!

Mark

[Volpone]

A couple things: 

Just my two cents, as a non Englishman and relative novice to police boxes, but that blue doesn't look that terribly light to me.  We all see how blue changes in different light and that one looks like its paint is fairly oxidized, I'd buy that it has a 1960s almost-black paintjob. 

It is very very interesting to see another box (besides the Barnett (and, I guess, the Crich)) that doesn't have the SJA badge.  I'd heard this indicated that the box didn't have a first aid kit, but I'm wondering if it was just a fun thing for vandals to steal. 

(I've been watching classic Hartnell episodes so I recently stuck an SJA badge back on it but I'm not 100% that I'll keep it, seeing this.)

[hb88banzai]

Definitely needs more work (I think I unconsciously went for a period Kodacolour saturated look), but I honestly don't think there's any way that's a dark royal blue, even one that's been severely weathered. The current Crich box paint scheme is much closer to the 1960's style paint, and I don't think it would still be that vibrant when faded this far.

All you have to do is compare the police officers' uniform blue to the box's to see the significant difference.

A B&W conversion of the enhanced image to better see the relative shades --



Compare to a true B&W photo - of M1 in the 1960s --



Though the enhanced Z21 shot is possibly a bit too dark for a one-to-one comparison, nonetheless, when you compare uniform (especially the trousers) to box in the same picture it is obvious that the M1 photo shows a box that is painted nearly the identical dark royal blue colour of the Met Police uniform. Not so with the Z21 photo, whenever it was taken.

On that question, though the 706 telephone (the first general issue telephone with this type of handset) didn't come out until April 1959, the semi-experimental GPO 700 was put out for limited trials as early as mid-1956, so being the Met it is just possible that many outer division boxes were retrofitted with the GPO 700 as part of the Post Office's testing, with the resulting possibility this photo dates from circa 1956 or 1957, just before the general use of the very dark blue paint scheme for Metboxes. (Note that M1 didn't need retrofitting as it was already up to PA 350 or above standards). The GPO 700 was essentially a GPO 300 series telephone with the internals and early (bakelite) version of the handset from what became a Mk 1 GPO 706.

The scraped and well soiled areas of paint would tend to suggest that this photo of Z21 depicts a box that hadn't been repainted for a number of years, so this could well be a 1950's transitional medium blue paint job with white trim that immediately preceded the dark royal blue paint scheme.

Note also that those scrapes in the teak door (and elsewhere) seem to show a much lighter blue paint underneath the medium blue, whether from wartime fading of the somewhat lighter pre-war blue or from a light blue primer coat. Regardless, my impression is that this photo of Z21 seems to show an intermediate paint scheme.

[DoctorWho8]

My color correction stab.

Bill "the Doctor" Rudloff

[petewilson]

Another weekend and another obscure photo....
This is from around 1950........   


Pete

[Volpone]

Another intriguing photo I've discovered......
Now what's going on here?
1) Lock is in the early box type position
2)White windows but not dark blue shell
3) Window Panes are like something based on the Paul McGann Movie Prop!
4) No St. John Ambulance sign

The poster on flicKr had no info apart from maybe in West London about 1955!

The old-style lock placement is probably what caught my eye first, but this gives me a chance to share something I noticed while working on my house that may provide some insight into police box windows: 

I have a crawlspace under my house.  But for some reason it has little basement windows.  The windows open like a police box, so you can't get in through them.  To get in you need to drag a big metal plate out of the way (after moving the patio furniture and rug that hide it).  This is obviously less than ideal, so I've been meaning to cut a trap door in a closet.  That said, I'm always leery about cutting holes in perfectly good things. 

But I'm rambling.  The point is, I had mysterious wet spot in one of my bedrooms the other day.  When I couldn't figure out where it had come from and realized it was more or less on line with where the pipe for the garden hose is, I decided I'd better get under the house and make sure there wasn't a pinhole leak in the pipe, pointing up at the floor. 

Since I was down there, I decided to have another look at the windows.  The problem is, they're badly rusted, so they don't work properly, but it occurred to me that if I could get one off its hinges and make it lay flat, then I could put some kind of board or brace over it and get in the crawlspace that way, so I had a closer look.  And finally, to the point: 

There's a slotted metal strap hanging from a pin at each top corner of the window casement.  There's a corresponding pin in the top corner of each window.  And the center of the slot has a widened out hole in it.  So what you do is you open the window until the pin lines up with the hole and you pop the window off the track.  Cool!  After taking both the straps off, I had to see if the window would lay flat.  Hold on, there's no bottom hinge!  The metal window frame just sits in the metal casement frame on its own weight.  Once you take the side strap/hinges off, you can easily pick the window out of the casement. 

So I would argue that police box windows worked this way and what we call the "drip frame" is actually just the bit that holds the window in place.  This would explain the upside-down window in this photo.  I might even suggest that some prankster or on a dare, someone sneaked up to a police box with open win...

Damn.  Never mind.  The front windows don't open.  Rats. 

[galacticprobe]

I have a crawlspace under my house. But for some reason it has little basement windows. The windows open like a police box, so you can't get in through them.

Those little windows are for crawlspace ventilation to help keep the damp at bay. The house I lived in when I was in high school in Pennsylvania had those. While they might have been good for passing some long items (i.e. timbers, piping, etc.) through to get things either into or out of the crawlspace, they're not meant for someone to use for access.

This is obviously less than ideal, so I've been meaning to cut a trap door in a closet. That said, I'm always leery about cutting holes in perfectly good things.

But I'm rambling.

Sending (possible rambling) PM on this one so as not to derail the topic.

Dino.