60's Wall/ Door roundel discusion

[Rassilons Rod]

And - on a related note, does anyone know of any set photos like these where the construction of the roundel walls is visible - like a side/back view?

(Just noticed what an amazing match your render is for the original set, Marc. Incredible!)

I've seen some, but only for later decades, nothing from the 60's as I recall...

Thanks Chris, that means a lot coming from you You should see Rob Semenoff's work... And he's WAY faster than me.

Took me 5 hours to remake my walls lastnight (with decent topology). It flew by, but it still seems a little excessive to me... :s

[kert gantry]

And - on a related note, does anyone know of any set photos like these where the construction of the roundel walls is visible - like a side/back view?

Pretty sure there's a publicity shot from Colony in Space where the Doc and Jo are looking out through the control room doors and you can see that the walls are hollow behind.

UPDATE: 11. 20pm

Have found the photo, but don't seem to be able to post pictures on here any more.  It's on the Tragical History Tour site if you'd like to check it out.

[markofrani]

Is this any use?

[mechanoid]

What a great shot. Shows a lot of detail I have never seen before. Was this from a particular story do you know?

Presumably the set up at the base of the door recesses is part of the door mechanism? It looks like some hefty weights holding the scenery down!

[DoctorWho8]

It's the Colony in Space shot mentioned above.
Bill "the Doctor" Rudloff

[galacticprobe]

And - on a related note, does anyone know of any set photos like these where the construction of the roundel walls is visible - like a side/back view?

There is a shot of the back of the main doors in the pilot episode where Barbara rushes into the TARDIS. )Celation, consodering which console you're building I'm guessing those are the ones you're interested in?) There's a photo of that here:
http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=212.30
It's about half way down the page. You can see the back of the roundels, and they look like thin, plastic "tubs" (for lack of a better word). I think there are other images of the back of the roundels on the Hartnell TARDIS main doors because they were visible anytime the main doors were open. (I've looked through my folders and I don't have any, but a quick viewing of any of the first few Hartnell stories should show the backs of the doors and their roundels.)

I would tend to think that the other roundels and walls were made the same way. And as always, if I'm wrong about that someone please correct me.

Dino.

[kert gantry]

Similar shot to above.  Less set detail but in glorious technicolour:

[kert gantry]

There is a shot of the back of the main doors in the pilot episode where Barbara rushes into the TARDIS. )Celation, consodering which console you're building I'm guessing those are the ones you're interested in?)

I would tend to think that the other roundels and walls were made the same way. And as always, if I'm wrong about that someone please correct me.

Dino.

I believe those are still the original doors in Colony, albeit with minor modifications and the bulky, fragile tubs replaced with flat gauze discs.  Yes, I'd guess all the full-relief walls were constructed this way.  Interesting to see that the door frame extends a good way out from the back of the roundels (which were pretty deep themselves), which would have hidden the tubs sticking out on either side of the door in the original version of the set.

[celation]

These are brilliant! Thank you MarkOfRani, Kert and Dino!

Interesting to see how deep the base they stand on is - makes sense to have the space to put the weights on to hold them steady, and make a larger "footprint" for stability.

It's also interesting that, though the door has a back and a front - as expected - the wall seems to have a definite back to it too. I assumed that you might be able to see the bracing between roundel holes, but it seems as if it's been covered up. Probably helps stop the whole thing collapsing. Did I once hear that it was built on a metal frame, or am I misremembering..?

Great to see the exact positioning of the door hinges, too.

Anyone familiar with set construction? How would those curved surfaces on the insides of the roundels have been created? Pretty sure bendy MDF wasn't around in those days...  Hardboard, perhaps?

[galacticprobe]

I know the 2005 set was build on a metal frame. I'm not familiar with the Classic Series' set construction, but would think they'd have been built mainly from plywood: it's sturdy and easily available. In the late 1990s I got to visit my friends at Paramount Studios and got an authorized tour of the "Voyager" sets (these and the DS9 sets were "closed" sets, meaning that no tours were allowed, but my friends worked on the "Voyager" and DS9 series, so I got really lucky). There was too much filming on DS9 that day so I didn't get to see those sets.

But walking around the "Voyager" sets was enlightening. The bridge set was on a stage all by itself, and the rest of the ship's sets were on another stage and all interconnected, so it was one huge set that made you feel like you were really on a starship. That is, from the inside. From the outside you could see that every set was made from plywood. The smooth innards were done with some fiberglass, bondo, anything that made a smooth surface and then sprayed with a nice semi-gloss to make it look like whatever a starship should be made of ("tritanium" on the outside, not sure what they called the inside). And of course there were the panels made from tinted plexi that had either the standard Trek graphics printed on them and backlit, or they had a TV hidden behind them so the graphics could be animated.

So the Classic 'Who' sets, at a guess, were most likely just plywood construction. The openings for the roundels could have been done with hardboard, or they do have heavy (and thick) cardboard tubing that they use when forming small concrete pillars. The tubing can be as big as 24 inches in diameter, and I've seen them over 12 feet long; they used those at the Industrial Shop on base. A tube like that could be cut into short pieces and used to make the deep roundel openings, and the thickness of the tube's walls (close to a half inch) would give the roundel a solid holding to be nailed or bolted to.

All just a guess, but it's all we've got until we can find someone who worked on those sets and can shed more light on the materials and methods used to build them.

Dino.

[kert gantry]

For a while now, I've been discussing how these walls would have been built with a friend who's a furniture designer/builder and is very good on construction and materials (one of my pipe-dreams is to have a shelf-unit built in the style of the Hartnell walls).  He's certain that strong bracing would have been necessary on a design like this, so your notion of a metal frame might not be a bit of mis-remembering.  And yes, the only way he can see the roundel drums being made is with hardboard or a thin laminate wood, both of which would have been available in 1963.  

[galacticprobe]

Considering the budget the original crew had for set construction, if it didn't allow for metal bracing, would have plywood or the standard wood bracing (a.k.a. 2 x 4s) been enough to support those walls? If so then it might make it more within reach of forum members' budgets.

Just curious about that because my attic crawlspace is full of ply and 2 x 4 bracing, supposedly to help it withstand hurricanes. Since the house is over 40 years old and numerous hurricanes have come through with the roof still intact (a few shingles not withstanding), I'm guessing wood bracing for the set walls wouldn't be out of the question?

Dino.

[exleo]

Most British TV sets are still Built in the same way today as they were from the beginning which is out of wood, Metal frames are very rare because they are expensive and time consuming to make and are usually only used in the construction of flooring levels for weight support or a wall where the frame is required to be seen..

Extrapolating from the photographs on this thread and those that are available of the later console rooms (various shots on dvd releases showing 'in'studio filming etc) it is safe to say the walls and roundel surrounds would have been made out of Ply wood usually 12mm or 18mm thick depending on how long the wall is expected to last. These would have had vertical wood struts attached to the back of the face of the wall supported by horizontal cross struts between the roundel holes (normally on a standard wall these will be in a simple cross work set up ususally around 24inches apart, but with the roundels being the lay out that they are the horizontal struts would instead be laid out in an offset design like you would if laying bricks, and each of these offset joints would be likely to have a triangular flat plate attached over the top for extra support and to stop any flexing at the joint).

The roundel walls themselves would have been made of a very thin Ply wood of around 3mm that would have been first soaked and then steam heated while being bent around a circular former of the right size. The wood will cool quickly and retain its circular shape taking any strain out of the wood and making it very strong and durable. These would then have been fitted into the hole in the flat wall and screwed into place and then all edges filled and sanded to lose any visible joints...
The pictures posted above show that in an unusual move that flat hole filled walls were also added to the back making each set wall the actual thickness of the roundels. It is unlikely these back walls would have contained frame strutting as any bending would not matter or be visible. The simple physics of a 'honey combe' type wall made of two surfaces filled with tubes is one of the strongest construction techniques in history, so these walls would have been very strong and long lasting and very sturdy because of their three dimensional construction.
The various roundel backings used would have been tacked onto the backs as can be seen in the photos above

Though a Construction like this would be heavy to move, it's own self supporting solidity would have meant a few 'Braces & Weights' in studio would have been more than enough to hold the set in place making at very quick and easy to set up for each studio session and build time was always very short, so the easier the better....
I would be intrigued to know if casters would have been included in the base of the build making it even easier to move around when walls needed to be removed during the almost live early recordings

[galacticprobe]

Most large set walls do have casters on them just as you surmise. This makes them "wild" in the filming vernacular. All of the Trek starship bridge wall sections were "wild". (TOS, TNG, Voyager, and the Defiant in DS9 all had wall sections that were wild. For 'Voyager', the main viewer wall was only rolled into place when it was needed, otherwise it was rolled off to the side.) Even the 1996 "Doctor Who" movie set has notes on the set diagrams regarding the girders around the console saying "All girders must wild", meaning that all girders parts needed to be on wheels for easy movement.

For the early TARDIS walls, being as solid as they appear (at least the ones that were 3D with actual roundels) would no doubt have had casters to make them "wild", not only for ease of movement for 'Doctor Who' filming angles, but also for setting up and breaking down the sets because the same studio was used for filming other series, and almost after each episode's filming was completed (sometimes even daily) the sets had to be moved to make way for those other filmings. (This is probably why the TARDIS set might look different from one scene or episode to another during those multi-part stories.)

Dino.

[kert gantry]

Thanks Dino and Exleo.  Although it contradicts my earlier post (and my clever furniture-maker friend!), I have to say your notions about the construction of this particular set make a lot of sense.

Weren't the casters visible under the original walls at some point, or is it my fevered imagination again?  I know there were some very obvious ones under the scanner frame, and on the Brachaki Police Box prop.