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Scarfwearer Wooden console plans

Started by Scarfwearer, Aug 22, 2009, 11:46 am

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handofomega

Ok, I just used the Measurements provided by Tony to build a virtual model of this console in Sketch Up.   Not to knock the measurements but it seems to be very small.   I increased the height of one of the human models to 6ft (6ft and a half inch to be exact) and when I placed him on the stage the console and the safety rails seem awfully short in comparison to his body.  Tom Baker is 6'3" tall so I think that the measurements are a wee bit off.   Oh and yes I did use millimeters to do the virtual build. 

The way it looks, the safety rails around the outside seem to be barstool seat level instead of proper rails.   The console itself seems incredibly small too.    Like I said, I am not knocking the measurements and that hard work you did Tony.  It just seems very small for a 6 ft person and since Baker is 6'3" it seems kind of smaller still...

BioDoctor900

Don't know if anyone has seen this before, but those who have the Impossible World's book may have....

IMG_20180204_003327.jpg

Unfortunately there aren't any measurements, but I thought it might be of interest

BioDoctor900

fivefingeredstyre

Yeah, I posted that a while back. It seems as though everything TARDIS related Barry Newbery designed for Masque got totally changed in construction...

Vale

One of the things I found most interesting about this concept art was how different it appeared to the final prop in many small details - for example, the much wider plinth and its generally bulkier appearance.

galacticprobe

Feb 05, 2018, 05:32 am #64 Last Edit: Feb 05, 2018, 05:32 am by galacticprobe
Maybe in this original concept - with the shaving mirror to be set on top of it - that bulky plinth made the console look like a vanity (or a clothes hamper) one would find in the loo, so they slimmed the plinth down to make it more like the actual "mini console" they were looking for.

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

amos pogle

Quote from: handofomega on Feb 04, 2018, 12:13 am
Ok, I just used the Measurements provided by Tony to build a virtual model of this console in Sketch Up.   Not to knock the measurements but it seems to be very small.   I increased the height of one of the human models to 6ft (6ft and a half inch to be exact) and when I placed him on the stage the console and the safety rails seem awfully short in comparison to his body.  Tom Baker is 6'3" tall so I think that the measurements are a wee bit off.   Oh and yes I did use millimeters to do the virtual build. 

The way it looks, the safety rails around the outside seem to be barstool seat level instead of proper rails.   The console itself seems incredibly small too.    Like I said, I am not knocking the measurements and that hard work you did Tony.  It just seems very small for a 6 ft person and since Baker is 6'3" it seems kind of smaller still...


I've just done the same thing, (well, created a tube the right height and put a Tom Baker sized figure next to it), and it doesn't look that far off to me, particularly since looking at the picture of Tom Baker standing next to the console (I tried to attach it but it didn't work - it's on the first page of this thread) he appears to be standing with his knees slightly bent, and the railings barely come up to his waist. 

I'm hoping to have mine ready to take to Mat Irvine's Smallspace event in Hanslope in the summer, if he mocks me for its smallness I will report back.

handofomega

Amos wrote:  "I've just done the same thing, (well, created a tube the right height and put a Tom Baker sized figure next to it), and it doesn't look that far off to me, particularly since looking at the picture of Tom Baker standing next to the console (I tried to attach it but it didn't work - it's on the first page of this thread) he appears to be standing with his knees slightly bent, and the railings barely come up to his waist."

To me the rails seem to be just roughly crotch height (to the figure in the Sketch Up) and that just seems too low.   The console itself seems low to, at least low to utilize comfortably standing next to it.   Like I said, I am not knocking the measurements, but the Sketch Up drawing just makes it seem small beside a 6ft tall person.  And with Tom Baker being 6'3" it would look a little smaller still.

tony farrell

Feb 06, 2018, 12:15 am #67 Last Edit: Feb 06, 2018, 12:25 am by Tony Farrell
Quote from: galacticprobe on Feb 05, 2018, 09:28 pm
Looking back at this topic I realized we were in the Console Reference Section.

So, I think it's time we split it starting from this post (http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=1102.msg105740#msg105740) and move the new topic to the Console Workshop Section. Since that post from amos pogle we've started delving into a "Workshop" topic and deviating from the original "Reference" topic.

I'll leave the title of the new topic to whoever splits it, but I do think we need to split things at this point.

Dino.


To be honest Dino, I have to disagree. To quote the very first post in this topic:

Quote from: Scarfwearer on Aug 22, 2009, 11:46 am
Here's a reference to the Season 14 wooden console plans that I drew up.
console-mk3.gif

All measurements are guesswork and subject to discussion.

Crispin


Unfortunately, for some reason, I haven't been able to access the forum for most of today so, I haven't had the chance to read many topics with the thoroughness they deserve. However, as Handofomega has raised doubts as to the accuracy of the plans I put forward and given Crispin's opening remarks, I feel that it is entirely appropriate for us to do exactly what Crispin/Scarfwearer suggested - i.e., discuss the proposed dimensions.

I would therefore respectfully suggest that no splitting of this topic is necessary and - given that I couldn't access the forum today - I'd also ask that the moderators exercise a degree of discretion and leave things as they stand in order that I can have the time to present a properly constructed reply which I hope will allay Handofomega's concerns.  :)

T

galacticprobe

Feb 06, 2018, 04:32 am #68 Last Edit: Feb 12, 2018, 11:22 pm by galacticprobe
Quote from: Tony Farrell on Feb 06, 2018, 12:15 am
To be honest Dino, I have to disagree.

<Read as Roger Delgado's voice echoes in my head once again> ;)

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Feb 06, 2018, 12:15 am
...as Handofomega has raised doubts as to the accuracy of the plans I put forward and given Crispin's opening remarks, I feel that it is entirely appropriate for us to do exactly what Crispin/Scarfwearer suggested - i.e., discuss the proposed dimensions.

On that note, I did a little PRYSM. And as usual, Tony, you make very valid points. So looking back at this topic (with no 2-year-old distractions this time :P), with the exception of just a few (no more than three, if I counted correctly), all images in this topic are indeed involved in the discussion of the console's measurements, with the aforementioned "no more than three" being the only actual "reference" images of this little console.

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Feb 06, 2018, 12:15 am
I would therefore respectfully suggest that no splitting of this topic is necessary...

I agree, and retract my suggestion from my previous post. (I'll figure out how to deal with that later: edit or delete.)

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Feb 06, 2018, 12:15 am
...and - given that I couldn't access the forum today - I'd also ask that the moderators exercise a degree of discretion and leave things as they stand in order that I can have the time to present a properly constructed reply which I hope will allay Handofomega's concerns.  :)

In view of your great insight, Tony, I deleted my suggestion post that you quoted. (I couldn't figure out how to edit it sufficiently, so I just deleted it.)

Dino.

EDITS - Made on 12 Feb 2018
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

tony farrell

Feb 07, 2018, 06:44 pm #69 Last Edit: Feb 07, 2018, 07:32 pm by Tony Farrell
Quote from: handofomega on Feb 05, 2018, 11:33 pm
Amos wrote:  "I've just done the same thing, (well, created a tube the right height and put a Tom Baker sized figure next to it), and it doesn't look that far off to me, particularly since looking at the picture of Tom Baker standing next to the console (I tried to attach it but it didn't work - it's on the first page of this thread) he appears to be standing with his knees slightly bent, and the railings barely come up to his waist."

To me the rails seem to be just roughly crotch height (to the figure in the Sketch Up) and that just seems too low.   The console itself seems low to, at least low to utilize comfortably standing next to it.   Like I said, I am not knocking the measurements, but the Sketch Up drawing just makes it seem small beside a 6ft tall person.  And with Tom Baker being 6'3" it would look a little smaller still.


Apologies for the delay in replying Handofomega.

To address your comments in turn, firstly the height of the handrails:

We know the diameter of the circular podium on which the Console stands because this is stated on the studio floor plan available on "The Robots of Death" DVD. The diameter of the podium is given as 2200 millimeters (this tallies with the grid pattern on the same floor plan where the studio floor is divided into squares each measuring two metric feet i.e., 600 mm by 600 mm).

Based on the stated podium diameter, it is possible to calculate the heights of the handrails (and Console) provided you can find a picture or screen-grab which shows them and the podium in the same frame:

Hand of Fear Ep 4 3.jpg

If you know the diameter of the podium, then it is possible to count the number of pixels which go to make up that diameter. For example, if the podium's diameter is 1100 pixels, you then know that one pixel equals two millimeters. So, if the handrails are 415 pixels tall, then - using the same example - you know that this equates to 830 millimeters.

handrail height.jpg

As you can see - to use your terminology - the hand rails are "crotch height"!

Your second point relates to the height of the Console in relation to Tom Baker's height:

Again, using the same picture, you can see that I have marked the points where the height of the hand rails intersect the centre-point of the Console. You can hopefully also see where I have marked the centre-point of the podium relative to the Console i.e., the "floor-level" on which the Console stands.

Counting the pixels up from the centre-point of the "floor level" to the top of the wooden part of the Console gives us the height of the Console itself and - as can be seen - it is clearly well below that of Tom's waist. Indeed, in order to 'operate' the Tardis from the secondary console, the Doctor has to stoop and - as soon as someone is stooping - they are no longer their full height.

Cxj24odXAAE2vjH.jpg
Cxj24ofWgAEeJIk.jpg

I hope that this helps.

T

handofomega

I understand where you measurements are coming from Tony.  And I am really not trying to cause trouble.   But the rails on the podium would come up to just above my thighs and I am 5'11" tall.  Converting to feet and inches, the bottom of the rails on your drawing are 2'7.5" or 31.5 inches from the podium.   I know that the rails aren't standard height for a safety rail (usually 42 inches), but it just seems small when I measure it out on my own height.  Maybe it is the illusion of television that makes it seem bigger than it is, I am not sure.

The console itself (minus the brass rails on top) is 37 and 3/8 inches which also seems smaller.   A yardstick (36") seems small when you stand it next to you and it would only be an inch and 3/8 taller that a yardstick...   

Also...  The step up to the podium is 5 7/8" tall in conversion so it is less than the height of an actual standard step riser (7.75 in the U.S. and 220mm UK)

Like I said I am not meaning to cause trouble, just seems so small in comparison to what it seems on screen to me.   But I am willing to say that it could be TV making things look larger than they really are.

tony farrell

I appreciate that you're not trying to cause trouble.

This time you mention the step up to the podium - again, this is specified on the TV studio plans: 150 millimeters (half of a metric foot). So, the diameter and height of the podium are both specified and - as I previously explained - all I did is count the pixels and apply the same ratio to the heights of the rails and console.

And, just to reassure you further, I haven't relied on just one photo, I've done this multiple times and the results are the same.

I think you'd be surprised (well, actually, you obviously are) at how small the wooden console actually was!  :)

T

handofomega

Well if it is that small then I am going to have to scale it up a bit to build it.    ;D

I do like the angles you have and the way it all comes together Tony.   It is brilliantly done.   I was reading my old copy of "In-Vision" that talks about the console room.   Memories.

Like I said, not trying to cause trouble, just realizing that the prop was SO MUCH smaller than I would have thought.

OH!!!  Speaking of the step up to the podium...   Is it the same height for the stairstep risers?  150mm???

tony farrell

Feb 09, 2018, 07:53 pm #73 Last Edit: Feb 09, 2018, 08:10 pm by Tony Farrell
Yes, the studio floor plan states that all the steps are 150 mm tall:

o7eF0ufv.jpg

I would have posted my plans but, unfortunately they're too big for the forum's  upload limit.

T

Scarfwearer

Feb 12, 2018, 05:39 pm #74 Last Edit: Feb 12, 2018, 05:49 pm by Scarfwearer
I haven't looked seriously at the dimensions of this prop since I built my own some years ago to my original 2006 plans.
Now that there's better reference material I thought I'd have another swing at it.

I used the high-res photo Tony posted up-thread:

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Jan 16, 2018, 06:54 pm
4M Masque of Mandragora BW020.jpg


... and also the 2200mm podium diameter measurement which is on the BBC studio plans.

Starting pretty much from scratch, this is what I came up with:

season14-console-v2.png

The prop in the reference picture is rotated at about a 15° angle, making it look narrower than it should be, so I had to correct for that with some trigonometry.

There are two major surprises to me:

The first is that the prop was apparently larger than I thought. I think this may be because without the studio plans I had guessed the width of the podium at 7 feet (I didn't even know it was a metric design at the time). So I underestimated the size of the podium by a couple of inches. Consequently I underestimated the width of the prop by about an inch.

The other surprise is that the panels below the belt appear to be larger than the ones above.
A few people have expressed a suspicion that this might be the case over the years, but it's difficult to see. While measuring the picture I realised that the prop was a couple of inches taller than I could account for, and was led toward this conclusion.
I tried inverting pictures of it, which certainly makes it look more plausible, but eventually realised that this has been in plain view since this picture was posted above:

Quote from: lespaceplie on Feb 15, 2015, 10:32 pm
check.jpg


The green lines there are all in the same plane, and are not far from perpendicular to the view, so the difference above and below the belt is not significantly the result of perspective.

I think one of the reasons people may be thinking this prop was so much smaller is a trick of perspective.
When you tip a disk to the horizontal and look at it, this happens:

perspective.png

(the lower picture is a mechanical perspective transformation of the upper one.)
The centreline diameter of the disk is actually behind the apparent widest point, so if you measure from the widest point the disk will appear to be larger than it is, and if you use that as a reference, everything else will look too small. The difference will depend on where the viewpoint is relative to the disk.

The unidentified difference between the upper and lower sloping panels has probably not been helping things either.