the tardis main doors

[croooow]

Didn't we already work out there were two non-door walls in the http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=3220 thread with the end of  "The Rescue" showing both walls together?


Here's a picture from "Power of the Daleks" that shows both non-door walls together.

[tony farrell]

Thanks Crooow - here's a picture from "The Rescue" (season two) showing two walls (non-main doors) complete with 'buckets'.
So, just need to resolve the question of the roundel diameter - two feet or two feet one and a half?
Tony

[Rassilons Rod]

Of course! Power of the Daleks! I should have known.... (I've done the console room in 3D...)

[Scarfwearer]

So, just need to resolve the question of the roundel diameter - two feet or two feet one and a half?
Tony

Well this is very perplexing...

• The doors are each made of 3 roundels vertically.
  
• There's a gap between each roundel, and a little at the top and bottom. That's 4 extra bits of height.
  
• PurpleBlancmange has reported that the doors he measured were 6'6" ( = 78") (at the time of that measurement, the doors would have lost the gap underneath and be mounted very close to the floor.
  
• We believe the same doors were used throughout the series.
  
• RobS reports that on the original contractual plans the roundel size was listed as 2' 1½" ( = 25½")
  
• By ratios and looking at screengrabs of the doors/walls, the roundels and the vertical gaps between them are in a ratio of about 1:12 in height, putting the spacing between them at close to 2".
  

It doesn't add up. If the roundels are 25½" in diameter, then the doors would need to be about 82½" tall - just shy of 7 feet. If the doors are 6'6" tall , the roundels have to be pretty close to 24". If all the other facts are correct the gap between the roundels would have to be 3/8" at most, which looking from the photo ratios it clearly isn't.

I think either the roundels were not built to the plans (something we've seen before) or Purple's measurement is wrong (which I'm reluctant to believe). Perhaps we need a photographic estimate of the height of the doors which doesn't depend on the presumed diameter of the roundels.
Another possibility is that they are not in fact the same doors throughout the series, as is presently believed...

Crispin

[galacticprobe]

Here's a photo from an earlier post in this thread:

(Image is warmcanofcoke's enlargement of the one posted by croooow.)

It's from "Colony In Space" (rehearsal shot?). According to Jon Pertwee's IMDB bio he was 6'3" tall. Taking into account that he is leaning over some in this photo, even if he stood straight up the top of those doors would be more than just 3 inches above his head. So those interior doors could very well be close to 7 feet tall (maybe even 7 feet, taking into account any gaps left under them so they didn't drag on the floor when moving), and these are probably the same doors used during the Hartnell and Troughton eras.

I think the 6'6" height was spot on for the TARDIS' police box doors, seeing how high their tops were when Pertwee was standing in the TARDIS doorway. But the "internal" main doors, which were obviously wider than the police box as a whole, definitely look taller than 6'6".

Katy Manning is standing just about straight up and several sites around the net say she is 5'0" tall, and those doors do look to be at least two feet above her head so I think the 7-foot (or "just shy of 7 feet") mark would be about right.

Dino.

[whofan88]

It doesn't add up. If the roundels are 25½" in diameter, then the doors would need to be about 82½" tall - just shy of 7 feet. If the doors are 6'6" tall , the roundels have to be pretty close to 24". If all the other facts are correct the gap between the roundels would have to be 3/8" at most, which looking from the photo ratios it clearly isn't.

I think either the roundels were not built to the plans (something we've seen before) or Purple's measurement is wrong (which I'm reluctant to believe). Perhaps we need a photographic estimate of the height of the doors which doesn't depend on the presumed diameter of the roundels.
Another possibility is that they are not in fact the same doors throughout the series, as is presently believed...

Crispin

According to the prop curator at the Doctor Who convention this past March the original roundels were 2 feet in diameter and the JNT roundels were slightly smaller.  For the Mk III console display at the Doctor Who Experience the roundels were made with the wide 2 foot diameter and the JNT roundels placed inside to join the two classic eras of the console room.  That is if I recalled that correctly.

[tony farrell]

Here's a photo from an earlier post in this thread:

(Image is warmcanofcoke's enlargement of the one posted by croooow.)

It's from "Colony In Space" (rehearsal shot?). According to Jon Pertwee's IMDB bio he was 6'3" tall. Taking into account that he is leaning over some in this photo, even if he stood straight up the top of those doors would be more than just 3 inches above his head. So those interior doors could very well be close to 7 feet tall (maybe even 7 feet, taking into account any gaps left under them so they didn't drag on the floor when moving), and these are probably the same doors used during the Hartnell and Troughton eras.

I think the 6'6" height was spot on for the TARDIS' police box doors, seeing how high their tops were when Pertwee was standing in the TARDIS doorway. But the "internal" main doors, which were obviously wider than the police box as a whole, definitely look taller than 6'6".

Katy Manning is standing just about straight up and several sites around the net say she is 5'0" tall, and those doors do look to be at least two feet above her head so I think the 7-foot (or "just shy of 7 feet") mark would be about right.

Dino.

As Crispin says, this is perplexing.
The original set was constructed in the 1960s when Great Britain still retained imperial measurements. In this context, two feet makes sense as something that would be a 'standard' size in the sense that a pre-made circle would be readily available. Equally it also makes sense that the set designer (Brachaki) along with all his colleagues would think in 'imperial' measurements. So, as well as sourcing readily available items which could be adapted (like the flower pots in today's Tardis walls), 24 inch diameter roundels would be a 'natural' figure to settle on. By contrast, 25.5 inches doesn't come 'naturally' either in imperial or it's metric equivalent (64.77cms). In addition, the circular hole for the central column in the console is 24 inches in diameter - artistically, it would be pleasing to echo this measurement elsewhere.
If we take the roundels as 24 inches and the 'full' gap between roundels as 2 inches (with an inch at the top and bottom of the doors), then we arrive at 78 inches. Allowing for an additional two inches for the castors on which the walls were mounted - occasionally hidden by wainscoting - then this takes the height of the door opening to 80 inches (the doors were also originally shown with a clearly visible skirting/wainscoting attached to the bottom inside edges - see "Edge of Destruction").
I'll try to find some clear screen grabs to back this up.
Regards
Tony
 

[Scarfwearer]

2 foot seems so much more sensible. And yet, and yet...

I can tell you that the original 1963 roundle holes were 2' 1 1/2" (at least thats how it's written) there is 3" of ring around the edge and a 3" drop. There is 1 1/2" space at the narrowest bit between the rings. The whole movable wall is 10' 4" high. The Roundles are inset 9". The whole wall is 12' 4" wide.

They were created by an outside contractor. But the sheet doesn't say who it was. It looks like there were supposed to be 2 made. But in the end only one was made.

Hope that helps.

This does make me wonder. If the outside contractor (possibly Shawcraft again) had said "no, that's silly: we can do 24 inch holes much more cheaply!" they'd have had to scale everything down to fit. Though I suppose they could have done that...

Part of the reason I wonder is that I built my own console room long before I discovered the online forums and I estimated the door height from screen captures then. At 7 foot.
This picture had a lot to do with my guess:



Tom Baker is 6'2"? 6'3"? and wearing 1970's 2-3" heels on his boots. And he's nowhere near the top of that door. Of course he could be slouching... hard to tell.

Measuring off this image, comparing the height of the inset modern roundel against the height of the door and knowing now that the roundel is 19.25" in diameter gives a door height of 82", which agrees with the 25.5" diameter for the holes.

Crispin

[galacticprobe]

One thing to remember with that screen grab from "Logopolis" is that this set is a completely different construction from the Hartnell through Pertwee era (possibly even up to Season 13 - have to check the door height against Tom Baker in stories like "Planet of Evil" or "Pyramids of Mars"). But those "Logopolis" doors are shorter than those in the Pertwee photo. (If they are the same height as those in the Pertwee photo, then Tom Baker it a foot taller than Jon Pertwee!)

The doors' roundel openings in the "Logopolis" photo are larger than those on the walls, but the roundel detail in the doors is the same size as the walls' (just painted rather than being translucent). So it's possible that whoever built the new set was using the Hartnell door roundel measurement before realizing the new roundels were smaller and the doors weren't so tall? Hence the roundel inserts in the doors having space around them? So for your style of console room, Crispin, you're spot on with the measurements for your doors.

But we're now starting to talk about two different sets and their respective doors: Hartnell era and Season 15 onwards. And I think the original question centered around the Hartnell era doors. We should probably try not to mix the two discussions together. Just sorting out one set of doors at a time is enough to make anyone dizzy.

Dino.

[Scarfwearer]

I'm pretty sure the doors have been believed to have been the same doors throughout the show's history, just moved into different sets, and refitted somewhat.
It would be really good to nail this down one way or the other, as it's quite widely believed.

It's really hard to judge the size of things by people standing next to them (even though I just did so - though I've backed it up with measurements from features of the door itself) as people don't always stand straight, they wear shoes, they have big hair, they lie about their height, etc.

And then there's parallax:



Crispin

[galacticprobe]

I understand the parallax issue. But in the Pertwee photo, both he and Katy Manning are standing in the doorway, and Manning is standing pretty straight. Pertwee is leaning over a bit, but even if he were standing straight, the top of the doors (at least the opening) would be close to a foot above his head.

In the Tom Baker photo, he's standing against the doors, and straight up. Even allowing an extra inch or so for his boot heels (and his height which is also 6'3" like Pertwee's) it looks like his head is much closer to the top of the doors than his boots would get him. I know hair also comes into play, but in both photos their hair style is similar - not identical, but curly and close to as tall on top of their heads (guesstimating distance from eyebrows to top of hair).

Dino.

[Scarfwearer]

I think Jon's left heel is a good 18" back from the front edge of the doorway (which is about 9" deep, BTW). And extrapolating from the vanishing point this is making him look 83% of the size he would be if he was in line with the front of the door frame. If he's a little over six feet tall, this is a difference of about 12".
It's very hard to be sure, but it looks at least possible to me that the doors are the same height in these two eras.
When I was making the console plans I used a good half-dozen pictures with different reference points and did a lot of averaging... and a little dead-reckoning...

Crispin

[galacticprobe]

Like you say, Crispin, it's very hard to be sure, and now you've got me second-guessing myself.  

At times like this I wish Purple was still with us. I'd love to hear his input on this one: Hartnell era doors vs. post-Season 15 era doors.

Dino.

[markofrani]

This pic from 'Planet Of Giants' seems to me to reinforce the idea that the doors were indeed around 7 feet high with 25.5" roundels, much as I'd like this to be wrong as I spent a long time building a 1:6 scale model wall based on the 24" roundels. Jaqueline Hill was 5' 7'' high and even if she was standing fully upright, there is no way those doors were only 6' 6" tall.

I have immense respect for Purple and his knowledge of all things Tardis, however I think this just shows that these things need to be checked/verified by others, rather than simply assuming they are correct.

The corner post widths of the Brachacki prop are a case in point, where they proved to be 4.5" wide rather than 4".
When the refit was done during the 'War Machines' there is a possibility that the side posts were reduced to 4" wide, but my estimation of the front and back posts is that they remained 4.5". Then again I could be mistaken!

[tony farrell]

The attached photo is from Claws of Axos and shows the Knossos Throne next to the doors. Does anyone know how high the back of this chair is? If we do, we ought, once and for all, be able to work out the diameter of the roundels from this.
Warm Regards
Tony