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Locations of Metropolitan Police Boxes and Posts

A couple of hours free today to have another go at updating the map and every now and again you spot something that makes you smile. In addition to the obvious GPO roadside boxes still lurking at some locations, you occasionally spot a dead give away that pinpoints a box to the nearest inch....
Box P18 - Gates Green Road. Croydon. The box might be long gone (16th June 1970) but its concrete base still remains.....
gates green ghost.jpg
Well, I smiled!
I'm checking the streetview locations for each box... I'm still mindful of what the what at the Archive said.... that theres supposedly a dissused and forgotten box out there, believed to be close to a recreation ground. Not even half way through but wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a concrete shell lurking out there somewhere?
Still Mapping, still searching.

Quick question... wasn't there a Mk 3 at some sewage works lurking at some point? Is that one still out there or has that been removed? (and where was that?)

Mark
 
Dalekoracle said:
Quick question... wasn't there a Mk 3 at some sewage works lurking at some point?
Is that one still out there or has that been removed?
(and where was that?)
Click to expand...

You are looking for Crossness Waterworks.

It seems it is a historical site, and they have a website.
I took a look around the site using Bing's Bird's eye views, but nothing like a Police Box stood out.

However there is a Trust restoring the Victorian Pumping Station building.
Maybe they know something about it?

 

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Thanks Starcross.
Bing Maps have a birds eye view option, and it shows what could be the box....

crossness connundrum.jpg

Thing is, theres a second one on the same site by the look of it! I wonder if these were used as storage / maintenence huts rather than their usual use as Police boxes?

I've emailed the preservation trust at Crossness to see if the box (boxes??) is/are still there. The have some open days coming up. Might be worth a wander across if it is there!

mark d.
 
Dalekoracle said:
Thing is, theres a second one on the same site by the look of it!
I wonder if these were used as storage / maintenence huts rather than their usual use as Police boxes?
Click to expand...

I took another look at the crossness site with Bing Maps and found not just two, but four!
I'm still looking for more, how many could there be?

I wonder if we could persuade the site owners to donate one to a museum?
After all if they aren't using them, it must cost less than the 25,000 GBP bygones wants for one.

 

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One wonders how many other boxes might turn up as I work my way through the met list. You see, as i was working my way through it I could nee no mention of any boxes located at any treatment works. Hence my question regarding where the box previously photographed was.
I was over the moon when I spotted two, but to see four possible Mk 3's there.... and none mentioned on the list.... well it really DOES point to them being used as pre-fab concrete "sheds".
If that is indeed the case, then it might be worth looking to see if there might be others lurking at other treatment works around the greater London area. I would doubt that these are the only ones.
Anyone fancy having a crack at that?
I need to get back to the main map!
(Pats on backs all round! I think its brilliant!)

Mark
 
Quick update.
Just got an email back from Peter at the Crossness Trust. The Boxes are not on their end of the development but are located on the active part of the site owned by Thames Water.
He has kindly given me the contact details of someone at Thames Water who should be able to confirm if the boxes are still there, their usage and maybe arrange access, as the site is private.
Will let you know what happens!
Mark D
 
Another update on the Crossness boxes.

I've been in touch with Thames Water and the chap there (another Peter!) confirms that they have a number of these structures on site. The whole site is seperate from the Crossness Trust site and is as such not open to the public.

However, they want to learn more about the boxes they have on site and have extended the opportunity to go in and have a look at all the boxes they have.

They are interested that the Hendon box is now listed. I really don't think that they had any idea that the pre cast maintenence storage shelters on site were anything other than maintenence storage shelters!

One wonders where this line of investigation might actually take us... They are simple storage structures at the moment and one wonders what condition they might be in.   Might this see an opportunity for the boxes to be stabalised and restored as Mk 3's I wonder?

I'm aiming to go in week after next, just waiting on a time and a date. (but Friday 18th is looking promising!) Space for another if anyone is in the area?

Mark
 
I did a quick breakdown of "The List" to show totals for specific installation dates as there is some reason to suppose that many, or even most of the closely associated installation date groups were implemented as part of individual projects, probably involving tenders from multiple companies for their completion (see "The Rise and Fall of the Police Box" as reference), with the contract usually going to the lowest bidder. This would go a long way towards explaining the many different versions of Boxes we see in the photographic record (I count at very least 4 distinct box patterns (most visible in the roof and sign box configurations) in addition to the wood/concrete-roofed originals and the very different "Mark 3's", though this is a quite cursory observation and likely there were more).

If we can pin down the location of boxes in the photo record (with approximate dates) and associate them to specific installation groups, it may be possible to eventually form a more clear picture of which "Type" or pattern of box was erected in a particular group or contract, perhaps eventually also associating them with a specific builder. We may also get a better idea if any particular type was used as a replacement for damaged or destroyed boxes (Mark 3?).

Regrettably, "The List" doesn't appear to give a record of any changes to a given box (or its replacement history), only the commission and decommission dates for the site itself along with some occasional all too brief comments.

Regardless, hopefully this will be of some use:

02 Dec 1929 --
22 Boxes in V Division (known to be original wooden models w/ concrete roofs - built by Messrs. Grove and Sons - some evidence only the pierced metal "POLICE" signs were installed initially)

20 Jan 1930 --
20 Boxes in Y Division (known to be original wooden models w/ concrete roofs - built by Messrs. Grove and Sons - some evidence that explanatory placard below the phone cupboard and St. John badge in opposite panel were part of the standard installation by this time)

13 Oct 1930 --
16 Boxes in V Division (type not known for certain, but presumed to be the first all-concrete versions from a new contractor - Somerville and Co. Ltd. - if so, "globe" style red beacon still being used (though possibly with new mounting hardware), with hopper windows and backlit glass "POLICE" signs (blue letters on white) now standard)

16 Mar 1931 --
20 Boxes in V Division (continuation of the V Division experimental installation project, probably with the same contractor)

20 Apr 1931 --
11 Boxes in V Division (completion of the V Division Project and presumed to have been built by the same initial concrete version contractor - Somerville and Co. Ltd. - noting that what pictures I've seen of the early concrete boxes show them to be of a pattern quite distinct from either Barnet or Crich as evidenced by differences in the sign boxes, pillars and roof)

30 Nov 1931 --
22 Boxes in W Division (possibility for a new contractor with a new pattern of box for new project/tender, but unknown if actually the case)

18 Jul 1932 --
18 Boxes in W Division

02 Jan 1933 --
17 Boxes in Z Division

03 Apr 1933 (5 not fully dated, but likely same)--
32 Boxes in Z Division

01 Apr 1934 --
13 Boxes in Y Division

02 Jul 1934 --
30 Boxes in P Division

13 Aug 1934 --
17 Boxes in P Division

08 Oct 1934 --
43 Boxes in K Division

05 Nov 1934 --
37 Boxes in R Division
3 Posts in R Division
 (Anomaly - PA1 Pillars were by some reports never used by the Met and yet the Met Posts were not designed until 1937)

08 Apr 1935 --
7 Boxes in Y Division

22 Apr 1935 --
19 Boxes in Y Division

06 Jan 1936 (though 3 not fully dated likely the same -- known from photographs to be a new pattern of Box more like Barnet) --
53 Boxes in J Division

13 Jan 1936 --
69 Boxes in S Division (All Barnet type Boxes? Barnet is among these (S63), but it is unknown if all in this group, and/or in adjacent groups, were of the same Barnet Pattern (and thus presumably built by the same contractor). Signage is still of the 'Mark 1" pattern, save that by this time the top signs read "POLICE PUBLIC CALL BOX" (though still in blue letters on a white background and now in a serif typeface) and the top beacons are of the familiar Fresnel configuration (though possibly still red in colour). It remains unclear exactly when these changes were implemented, but they appear to be firmly established by this point.)

04 May 1936 --
66 Boxes in X Division

20 Jul 1936 --
68 Boxes in T Division

18 Jan 1937 --
2 Boxes in W Division

09 Aug 1937 --
13 Boxes in L Division (possibly the first installation of boxes with the classic "Mark 2" sign configuration as original fitting - applies to whole group)
13 Boxes in N Division
4 Posts in N Division (probably the first of the classic rectangular pattern Metropolitan Pillar installations (PA2))
4 Boxes in W Division

03 Jan 1938 --
7 Boxes in B Division
9 Posts in B Division
15 Boxes in F Division
1 Post in F Division
7 Boxes in G Division
3 Posts in G Division
11 Boxes in H Division
8 Posts in H Division
9 Boxes in M Division
8 Posts in M Division

24 Jan 1938 --
1 Box in A Division
4 Posts in A Division
1 Box in C Division
7 Posts in C Division
3 Boxes in D Division
10 Posts in D Division
1 Box in E Division
9 Posts in E Division

29 Jan 1938 --
1 Post in A Division

The rest seem to be low volume additions or replacements to the system (Crich and/or Mark 3 boxes and PA3 posts?):

Jan-Feb 1948 --
2 Boxes in P and W Divisions

15 Jul 1948 --
1 Box in W Division

Nov-Dec 1948 --
4 Boxes in Z and V Divisions

Jan-Feb 1949 --
7 Boxes about a week apart in P and W Divisions

Dec 1953 --
1 Box in S Division

1954 --
2 Boxes in T Division (The 2 Heathrow Airport Mark 3s)

21 Oct 1958 --
1 Box in S Division

1959 --
1 Box in M Division (Last entry for a Box)
1 Post in M Division

1962 --
2 Posts in R Division

1963 --
1 Post in C Division
1 Post in F Division
2 Posts in H Division
1 Post in M Division
1 Post in R Division

04 Aug 1965 --
1 Post in A Division

EDIT: Corrections to above figure made based on proofing of transcribed Met List/Database by comparing to original scans. Original Met List transcription as posted and linked in this topic has not been altered, but Metbox Database has been corrected.
 
Thanks for putting this together :)

Longer posts of reference information like this would make great candidates for forum articles. We've had the mechanism for a while but I haven't really managed to get people into the habit of considering it for things like this.

Crispin
 
Scarfwearer -

Please feel free to move it if you think it should be.

I had briefly considered it, but then thought perhaps it belonged with the discussion on the main "List". In the end decided to just post and see what the response was.

What would really facilitate this kind of research would be a relational database where we could tie individual photos to "The List" (both currently known photos and new ones as they are found) and enter findings as they are uncovered or deduced.

A more rigorous interim taxonomy of the boxes themselves would likely be necessary as well to provide some order while still giving some flexibility. I have a few ideas percolating on that front that wouldn't drastically change the common "Mark" nomenclature and usage (I'm afraid they are almost locked in stone at this point), but would rather refine it along with introducing a new component regarding the structural differences.

Really, "The List" is an incredible gold mine of information - hats off to all involved in bringing it to light (and to this forum). For the first time, coupled with the brief but detailed references in "The Rise and Fall of the Police Box", we can finally begin to get a glimmer of order in the chaos.
 
Going back to Crossness; I was chatting to a customer today and it turned out he works at Crossness and a little later, confirmed that as of right now, the boxes are still on site. He also said the sister site north of the Thames in Beckton may have some as well, but I looked on Bing and couldn't see any.
He also sounded very interested in their preservation once I told him what they in fact were!!!!!!
When he gets back to work he's going to take some snaps for me; he said they were in varying states of repair and used to be used as would you believe 'phone boxes' connecting the site internally!!
 
I'm wondering if these Crossness Boxes were actual re-sited Police Boxes or if they were instead additional sales by whoever did the original contract work on the Mark 3's.

It's perhaps possible that as they were such a different design (and thus not under Met copyright) that they might have been offered as a standard design for such installations for a brief time, or have been production overruns or unused reserve stock that was subsequently sold off on the cheap when it was clear the Met would never want or need them.
 
I think they were definitely never Police Boxes as such because the bloke I poke to said they had never been painted any colour as far as he was aware so I think you're right in that they were sold by the manufacturer to the local water board. Which is why I wondered if the Beckton site had any, or indeed if there was a an undiscovered country of Mk 3's that smell a bit and have never been police boxes!!
 
hb88banzai said:
...
13 Jan 1936 --
69 Boxes in S Division (All Barnet type Boxes? Barnet is among these (S63), but it is unknown if all in this group, and/or in adjacent groups, were of the same Barnet Pattern (and thus presumably built by the same contractor). Signage is still of the 'Mark 1" pattern, save that by this time the top signs read "POLICE PUBLIC CALL BOX" (though still in blue letters on a white background and now in a serif typeface) and the top beacons are of the familiar Fresnel configuration (though possibly still red in colour). It remains unclear exactly when these changes were implemented, but they appear to be firmly established by this point.
....
Click to expand...

I was brought up in Kingsbury in the 1960s, and we lived near a box that I now know from the list to be S14 - junction of Kingsbury Road and Fryent Way.  That box always stuck in my memory (being a 6 year old Doctor Who fan), but when I next found a real box at Mile End in the 1980s, I was slightly disappointed as it didn't quite look as I remembered. However photos of the Barnet box did. 

I now realise from your comment above that the Fryent Way Police Box was indeed "Barnet" style, and that my memory is far better than I ever imagined!  It was an incredibly dark blue, in fact I'd go so far as to say almost black.

 
The four maintenence sheds (boxes) are still on site at Crossness, but I've not had the opportunity to go in and take a look at them yet. (working in events, and with the Olympics coming up, my diary hasn't given me the window of opportunity i had hoped for - unfortunately I can only get access during working hours on weekdays)
Peter at Thames water has confirmed that the boxes were only every used as maintenence boxes and is rather intrigued and excited regarding the news that these sheds have a provenence and history. Yes they're maintenence sheds, but cast from the later Police Box moulds.
I'm still trying to sort out a time and date to go in and will let you know when I'm going in!
If theres any fellow members in the London Area who might be free and might want to come along, let me know!
Mark D

 
Hi, I have heard rumours about this site for a while and have finally located it following some detective work.  The Metropolitan Police Box system has been an interest of mine for many years, both the history of and the locations of the same. I must own up to being the compiler of the list of the above locations within the Metropolitan Police District - completed a number of years ago from information gained from a number of MEPO Files at Kew PRO. This list was donated to Robin Gillis of the Metropolitan Police Archives and Museum (at Charlton as was). Since then, the master has seen a great number of corrections and additions. Unfortunately, work committments will see me out of the country until Jan 2013. but on my return I hope to answer as many queries as possible that have arisen with regard to this subject.
Mike Knight 
 
Good to have you on board Mike.
Can I ask, when was the list compiled? The chaps at the Met Museum were a litttle sketchy and not sure themselves when i went in and scanned a copy for the chaps here.
Are you London based?
Mark

 
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