Found this Excellent (new?) Web Site

[petewilson]

Hi All,

I stumbled across this web site today and thought it was worth sharing.........

I'm not sure how accurate some of the information is (as I didn't think Newcastle had Met-Style Boxes?!?)
But still a great site nevertheless

http://www.henderson-tele.com/policeboxes/

 

[hb88banzai]

Found this a few weeks ago myself, but have been debating whether it was worth posting, or at least how to phrase the accuracy warning.

My take is that when it comes to Police Boxes (especially those in Glasgow and London) the above site is often very, very inaccurate on almost every front. Real problem is that the website's tone sounds very authoritative, as if it's citing history the way it was, but then says things we just plain know are wrong from our own researches, thus leaving very questionable the validity of the information we don't have ready confirmation or disputation of. Much of it seems to be created out of whole cloth, or at least from very questionable sources or even net-rumor. It even blurs and confuses Glasgow and Met boxes as if they are the same exact design at times - in both text and drawings - and then goes on to state and show that the phone door on a Met Box could actually be on the side! Say what?

Very mixed bag, but certainly interesting if taken with the proper heavy dose of salt. A bit like going down the rabbit hole at times, however.

I do have a great deal of fear that much of the misinformation on that site will become entrenched in the net as "fact" over the coming years. If it's on the net, it must be true, right?

In all fairness though, that site is not the first source to link Newcastle to Met Boxes. "The Doctor Who Technical Manual" said something similar back in 1983 --

"The earliest Police Box to resemble the Doctor's was set up in Newcastle in 1929." It then goes on to correctly note that the first boxes were made of timber, with later ones being reinforced concrete.

The flip side - this new website indicating that Newcastle lent or sold a few of their shed-type boxes as tests around London (along with some of the Sheffield, rounded top designs) - is equally interesting, but it's certainly the first I've heard of it and we've never seen any other textual confirmation, much less any photos of one on the streets of London. Perhaps Mike Knight can confirm or deny these notions of a lend-lease exchange of Police Boxes between the Met and Newcastle and/or that the Met tried out some of the Sheffield boxes.

 

[mark]

I emailed the fellow who runs the site towards the end of last year, he is a nice guy. I pointed him in the direction of this site and told him there were a few inaccuracies.

He said he was more than happy to talk about the issues however he had had issues in the past (non police box related) with "rivet counters" so I pointed out that wasnt the case and it was more of a case of keeping the history, er historical.

Nearly finished what I was going to send but if any one wishes to add, drop me a pm or whatever and I'll add it to my email as long as it isnt "rivet counting" stuff.

 

[petewilson]

Oh Petra is a  male name (No wonder he didn't reply to my second email!)  :-\
Anyway I've just spent the evening scouring through 8000 Photos of Newcastle and only came across about half a dozen photos that contained the "Potting Shed" Type Police Box.
I know the odds of finding just two Makenzie-Trench Boxes in the Newcastle area are small......but I don't think there were any!  :'(

Pete

 

[hb88banzai]

I emailed the fellow who runs the site towards the end of last year, he is a nice guy. I pointed him in the direction of this site and told him there were a few inaccuracies.

He said he was more than happy to talk about the issues however he had had issues in the past (non police box related) with "rivet counters" so I pointed out that wasnt the case and it was more of a case of keeping the history, er historical.

Nearly finished what I was going to send but if any one wishes to add, drop me a pm or whatever and I'll add it to my email as long as it isnt "rivet counting" stuff.

Hmmm, it would be a long list and require more than a little finesse to separate out bits that could be interpreted as "rivet counting" and concentrate more on the "WTF" elements (Phone doors on the sides; Mark 1's with "leaded" roofs & only 10 of them; Sirens on "stands" on top of Met Boxes or atop "telegraph poles" bringing in phone lines from above; pre-1929 Met Police Telephone Boxes spaced a mile apart and used as speed traps, etc). Even then might literally have to go paragraph by paragraph in the London, Glasgow and Dr. Who sections (with some crossover in Newcastle). I don't know enough about the other Box areas to even tell if there are similar issues with them.

It might be very useful to pair a list of known major accuracy concerns with a list of queries about source material for some of his other assertions - such as Newcastle/Met box cross-pollination, Sheffields in London, and even things like his tri-colour representation of the original Mark 1 signage (artist's license, or does he know something we don't?).

Mind you, his site itself does have quite a bit of merit. It is fairly well polished in its look and feel and does a nice job with the illustrations (even though they are sometimes more than a bit off in detail or proportion). If the author is indeed amenable to some help in the accuracy department, it would definitely be worthwhile to foster a good working relationship with him. I had considered contacting him myself, but was rather daunted by the volume of the issues I'd have to discuss with him and didn't want to scare him off. Then Gallifrey loomed large and I got more than a bit distracted.

Mark, if you would PM me with the pertinent bits of the e-mail you are prepping I could see if there is anything you haven't covered that might be relatively important to either correct or query about.

 

[petewilson]

I've done a little bit of Research over the last few days and having checked with a few different organisations in Newcastle I believe that there were NO Mackenzie-Trench boxes in Newcastle...
But there were a couple of these type which are so cool and would make a great TARDIS (IMHO) (c 1940's)   ;D

Pete

 

[hb88banzai]

Newcastle or nearby South Shields?

Here are some South Shields boxes --







Certainly a unique design. Looks like the little doors on the right provide access to the phone on top and the first aid kit below. Shame we can't read the plaques - top looks like it has full instructions on how to use the phone and the bottom looks like it might have a St. John seal on it.

There's a short article on these boxes from the Shields Gazette that you can read here:

http://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/stepping-back-onto-a-nostalgic-beat-1-4905999

A brief excerpt --

Mr Rigg says that police boxes were introduced to South Shields in 1930, and that around 40 of them were in place around the town.

They were seven-sided and made of concrete. They were originally painted black, green and red, but before long, were repainted in the town’s colours of pale blue and cream.

He added: “Inside the boxes was a stool, desk, telephone, first aid kit and a brush and shovel.

“They were used as mini police stations where officers could write up reports, telephone the station and if they had arrested a particularly violent criminal, they would use them as a temporary cell until back-up arrived.

“They were also used as a place for police officers to smoke as they weren’t allowed to while walking around their beat.

“There was also a phone on the outside of the box that could be used by the public, along with instructions on how to use it as back then, phones were very rare.”

 

[petewilson]

I would of thought Beamish, The Living Museum of the North would know the difference between Newcastle and South Shields.... Actually thinking about it.. I wouldn't!! 
But hey wouldn't this of been the SECOND best choice for Tardis design/prop!!

Pete

 

[hb88banzai]

They are incredibly cool.

Yes, I could just see the Doctor's reaction in exiting the TARDIS only to see this version of a Police Box. What a double take.

Interesting that the "POLICE BOX" sign appears to be on the top rail of the door.

Looks like that last photo is of one in it's original tri-colour livery and without a top light - shame it's not in colour. Seems that it was some time later that they were retrofitted with the PA1 lamps on top and possibly the PA150 type speaker phones on the sides.

You can see what looks like a ventilation slot at the top of the side wall on the last photo and you can see the same on the earlier ones, meaning that the first two photos are primarily of one of the side walls of the boxes (in context probably the left side when facing the door from the outside). Hard to tell at these ranges and resolutions, but in those photos it kind of looks like a speakerphone hatch has been installed about where the lower part of the window used to be and a smaller window installed above it, with the ventilation slot still visible above that.

If these boxes were indeed installed in 1930 then these would have to be later modifications as the Ericsson speaker phone system didn't even come on line until around 1932-1933, first installed in Scotland in the Glasgow and Edinburgh areas.

 

[hb88banzai]

(snip)
But there were a couple of these type which are so cool and would make a great TARDIS (IMHO) (c 1940's)   ;D

Pete

View attachment 81577

Street sign on the building next to the box seems to say "Boldon Lane", which places it squarely in South Shields. Nothing similar (like Doldon Lane, etc.) is in Newcastle proper.

In looking at OS Maps, it appears there was a box at the corner of Boldon Lane and Rutland Street (the latter no longer there due to re-development, but approximated by South Dene).

Location relative to buildings appears to be a match (1941-1942 OS Map - marked as PCB just below center of extract) --



As further confirmation, in the 1915-1918 OS Map (the next previous available), while too early for the Box there is a tram line that curves from Boldon Lane to Stanhope Road (the large road just behind the photo's POV) at this junction precisely the way the overhead wires do in the photo. The Box continues to be on the OS maps at the same location through the 1970 edition.

So, appears to be strictly a South Shields type Box.