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Crich Box Original Location

Found a picture (which I didn't take and don't know where I found it) but it looks to be from long ago.

If you look under the paper there is a blue thing which could be the number disk.

I've messed with it on PS and posted a relief image next to it.

Might just be my eyes or clutching at straws but to me it looks as though the oval disk is facing on the vertical plane instead of horizontal and reads "70" from top to bottom.

More likely completely wrong but I thought I would share for opinions.
Crich number.jpg
 
Intriguing. Looks like it has holes on either side as well.

It was quite awhile ago, as it had the old phone and the instruction sign still in place on the inner door.

Crich-6-TelephoneBox.jpg

Wish we had this in higher resolution.

Here's another from the same time period with a better pic of the phone and sign in place --

Crich-5-Telephone.jpg

In this much newer pic you can make out what look like screw holes in the phone cabinet, just below the white paint and just to the right of the fire extinguisher bracket--

060802-Crich_019.jpg

Might be a bit widely spaced though, for that sized tag. Hard to tell considering the angle in the photo combined with the fuzzy resolution.
 
If that is the number tag and it is "70" and it is the original for the Box, that complicates things a bit, doesn't it.

Here are the only two "70" Boxes in the Met List --

S70 Box A.R.W. Siren 21-Oct-58 24 Apr 70 London Road, east side 5 yards south of Wilton Close Shenley Barnet

V70 Box A.R.W. Siren 01-Dec-48 20 Oct 70 Northwest corner of junction of Steels Lane and High Street Oxshott Kingston

Box S70 would have without doubt been a Mark III, but V70 being 1948 is about right for a Crich/Wimbledon(replacement) type Box if the WWII to c1950 dating of them is correct. Hmmmmm...
 
I might be able to help with higher resolution pics, as I took the original photos back in - good grief, 1984!  ;D

Hopefully I will be able to find and scan the original negatives, otherwise it will have to be scans from my old prints I'm afraid...

Tony
 
:P Either would be immensely helpful.

My, that is a long time ago. In fact, that's right after it was acquired by Crich from the Met, which I believe was 1983!  :o
 
On the subject of number plates -

From what I've been able to gather, only the numeral part of the "Box Number" would likely be on the number plate - the Division letter part of the Box number being sort of assumed by its location. Though the Met List as we have it lists Boxes in the form of Division letter and then Box number, in actual practice they were apparently referred to in the opposite way - eg, "40W" for Box number 40 in W Division (Met List's W40).

Mark -
I noticed that the Trench plans have the number "40" on the oval number plate in the interior view - perhaps that's where you remembered that particular number from?

ukwookie -
Any luck at finding and/or scanning a higher resolution version of the photo?

 
Still looking for the pics/negatives! That tells you everything you need to know about my filing system...  ;D

Tony
 
Well, isn't this interesting.

First off, in looking back through this thread there is one thing that has become clear from various texts I've read or re-read in the last year; any Box reporting to Tooting P.S. would almost certainly have actually been in Tooting Sub-Division, so if the phone instruction plaque is to be believed it would have had to be one of these 11 Boxes:

  W23    Box    A.R.W. Siren    Southwest corner of junction of London Road and Orchard Avenue - Beddington Corner - Tooting    

  W24    Box                  Southeast corner of junction of The Drive and Leominster Road - St Helier - Tooting    

  W25    Box                  Northeast corner of junction of Manor Road and Commonside East - Mitcham - Tooting    

  W26    Box    A.R.W. Siren    Rowan Road, east side 10 yards north of Longthornton Road - Lower Streatham - Tooting
(Sited on Z division. Transfered to Norbury sub-division (Z))

  W27    Box                  London Road, east side 20 yards north of Streatham Road - Mitcham - Tooting    

  W28    Box    A.R.W. Siren    High Street, west side 50 yards north of Priory Road - Colliers Wood - Tooting    

  W29    Box                  Mitcham Lane, west side 20 yards south of Southcroft Road - Lower Streatham -Tooting    

  W30    Box                  Tooting Bec Road, south side 10 yards west of West Drive - Tooting - Tooting    

   W31    Box                  South corner of junction of Tooting High Street and Mitcham Road - Tooting - Tooting    
(Tooting Broadway Box)

  W32    Box                  Wimbledon Road, east side 5 yards south of Garratt Lane - Tooting - Tooting    

  W46    Box                  Southeast corner of junction of Green Wrythe Lane and Middleton Road - Sutton - Tooting

Fair enough, and not much to narrow things down as Crich is what we now know to be a Mark 4 type box, which were likely made between somewhere around 1940 (or even later) and 1953 or so when the Mark 5's (what we previously called Mark 3's) came out, yet all the Tooting Boxes except W46 were first commissioned 18 July 1932 making them Mark 2's, with W46 being a Barnet type Mark 3 commissioned 18 January 1937. So, like the Wimbledon Common Box, Crich would have had to have been a replacement for a damaged or moved Box.

But then I was looking at some of my old downloads from around 8 years ago and came across this clipping (not sure from where) --

Crich Clipping.jpg

I went looking around and found it was a Grade II Listed building and the listing description seems to confirm the clipping:

Name: POLICE BOX AT TRAMWAY MUSEUM

List entry Number: 1109166

Location
POLICE BOX AT TRAMWAY MUSEUM, CLIFFSIDE

County: Derbyshire
District: Amber Valley
District Type: District Authority
Parish: Crich

Grade: II

Date first listed: 14-Apr-1987

UID: 78775

List entry Description
Summary of Building

Police Box. Early C20. Pre-cast concrete. Square plan, each face identical, with 6 lower panels and 2 small glazing bar fixed lights above. The doorway is the right half of the east face. The whole surmounted by a blue light. This box was originally sited on the North Circular Road, London, and it was removed to its present site in 1983.

Listing NGR: SK3453654841

Source: http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1109166

So, as of 14 April 1987 it was thought to have originally come from on or near the North Circular Road. That covers around 30 Boxes or more in some six Divisions - T, X, S, Y, J and K.

But which are we to believe?

We do know that along with the Box the museum was given a lot of spare parts by the Met to help in refurbishing as it was reportedly in pretty shabby shape when they donated it (their own plans to display the Box at Hendon having fallen through), but was the "Tooting P.S." telephone instruction sign one of these additional parts or is it original to the Box, and if the latter then why would the listing info have been submitted with such a huge error as to the Box's original location?

Curiouser and curiouser.
 
Hmmm...

In the interests of putting everything on the table in one place I should probably risk some more smoke in the hope of finding a flicker of fire somewhere in the middle of it all.

First up, in my rummaging about I also found this photo --

PhoneLeft.jpg

There's that pesky number 40 again!  

I'm not sure when this photo was taken, but the next photo shows it was some time after the Box was repainted from the dark blue it sported when first installed at Crich --

PhonePanelHandleSide.jpg

Per ukwookie, his photos with the dark blue paint and the dial phone on the other side of the cupboard...

View attachment 60601

View attachment 60603

...were taken in 1984, only a year after the Box came to Crich, so the one with the "40" wasn't the original phone. Still, it's interesting.

Mark, you said that you saw a plate or sign of some kind on the outside of the cupboard somewhere near the fire extinguisher bracket and that you put it in the position you remembered in your Sketchup model, but didn't include a render of the model. Out of curiosity, could you post a pic of the model that shows the sign or draw in where you remember seeing it in this photo? --

View attachment 60605


---​


Now, another probably spurious location suggested in a couple of places was somewhere close to the Tooting Railway Station on London Road. Per the Met List, however, there were no Boxes very close at all to that station. The only Box on London Road anywhere close is a good deal south, at the southern end of Figges Marsh in Mitcham (W27), but it was about as far away as the Box at Tooting Broadway Underground Station (W31) up Mitcham Road (which London Road becomes north of the railway station). They were about 1,000 yards and 1,200 yards from the station, respectively.

In the reading, it really sounds like these were rationalizations for the Tooting P.S. sign, however, so this can probably be discounted. I thought I should mention it, nonetheless, as I've seen it in more than one place.


---​


Finally there are the reports of the Crich Box originally being sited on "Ealing Broadway." I couldn't find any mention of this on line before about the time of the reconstruction work in 2006, but beside it appearing on the previous incarnation of this Board (along with a spurious identification of the Shepherd's Bush Box as being the "Ealing Broadway" Box and a somewhat stretched rationalization for why a box on Ealing Broadway would be connected to Tooting P.S. clear on the other side of the Thames) it was also mentioned in a couple of newspapers when they reported on the reconstruction work. No sources for the info was mentioned, unfortunately, so for all we know the newspapers got those details (along with it being a "Mark 2") from us.

Still, it deserves further investigation. Looking at the Metbox Map it's pretty obvious there were no Boxes actually on Ealing Broadway per the Met List as we currently have it. Ealing Broadway is (and per the OS maps always has been) a fairly short stretch of Uxbridge Road between High Street and Windsor Road, with it changing to The Mall to the east before going back to Uxbridge Road near Hanger Lane.

The two closest boxes:

T53 was on Uxbridge Road about 1,200 yards west of the western end of Ealing Broadway. That's over 2/3 of a mile.

T50, also on Uxbridge Road, was around 730 yards east then southeast of the eastern end of Ealing Broadway, with The Mall in between. Things start to get a bit interesting here, though. Not only was it a lot closer to Ealing Broadway, but it was on an island at the corner of Uxbridge Road and Hanger Lane, across the street from Ealing Common. The roadway north of the Site is Hanger Lane (and on either side as it surrounds the two islands on either side of the main roadway), and to the south it becomes Gunnersbury Avenue, but they both go by another name...



...wait for it...



...wait for it...



... the North Circular Road!

So, if we take both the report that it was on "Ealing Broadway" and the description in the Listed Buildings info that it was on the North Circular Road at face value, then with only a little bit of stretching T50 becomes a very strong candidate.

Here's a photo of T50 (the Ealing Common Box) from 20 August 1947 --

EalingCommonBox-20Aug1947.jpg

Source:  http://www.ltmcollection.org/photos/photo/photo.html?_IXSR_=Mse_eAf_PAs&_IXMAXHITS_=1&IXinv=1998/44400&IXsummary=results/results&IXsearch=ealing common&_IXFIRST_=236

A blowup --

EalingCommonBox-20Aug1947-Blowup.JPG

Too blurry here to tell one way or the other, but perhaps it would be worth buying a copy of this photo in order to find out if it's a Crich type box. Wouldn't be conclusive if not, as it was only 1947 and they could have changed it up after that, but if it were a Crich type it would definitely be more circumstantial evidence that this was actually the Crich Box's original location, the "TOOTING P.S." sign notwithstanding.
 
I wonder if could add my penny worth to this topic. There is a strong possibility that it was W30 (Tooting Bec Road). My reasoning for this is that all Boxes removed beyond the general removal programme of 1970 tended to to stored at Hendon College pending disposal. W30 was one such box and I have paperwork concerning the sale of this Box to Crich during 1982. Obviously, this is supposing that the internal telephone cabinet instructions referencing Tooting Police Station is original to this Box. If I can find it, I have referencing of a Mr Hobart who was a works manager at the Peel Centre during the 1970s and 1980s and he indicated that as at 1980 there were 4 boxes and 3 posts stored there. One was transferred to the Museum of London, 1 to Crich and 2 were employed as temporary guard huts at Hendon College.
 
Your pennies are always worth counting.  8)

Intriguing data - love to see whatever you can find.

I wonder what happened to the Box transferred to the Museum of London?
 
Wondersm if one was the Barnet box?

Remember ages ago DalekOracle said hia source said there was obe still hidden in a park or something?
 
hb88banzai said:
T50...

(snip)

... the North Circular Road!

So, if we take both the report that it was on "Ealing Broadway" and the description in the Listed Buildings info that it was on the North Circular Road at face value, then with only a little bit of stretching T50 becomes a very strong candidate.

Here's a photo of T50 (the Ealing Common Box) from 20 August 1947 --

View attachment 84291

Source:  http://www.ltmcollection.org/photos/photo/photo.html?_IXSR_=Mse_eAf_PAs&_IXMAXHITS_=1&IXinv=1998/44400&IXsummary=results/results&IXsearch=ealing common&_IXFIRST_=236

A blowup --

View attachment 84293

Too blurry here to tell one way or the other, but perhaps it would be worth buying a copy of this photo in order to find out if it's a Crich type box. Wouldn't be conclusive if not, as it was only 1947 and they could have changed it up after that, but if it were a Crich type it would definitely be more circumstantial evidence that this was actually the Crich Box's original location, the "TOOTING P.S." sign notwithstanding.

I've finally received a copy of this photo - unfortunately it definitely is not a Crich type box. Looks to still be a standard Mark 3 as would have been initially installed in T Division. This doesn't entirely rule it out (if our dating of the Mark 4's is correct), as the photo is from 20 August 1947, leaving at least a couple of years for it to have been replaced. Nonetheless, it does lower the likelihood a bit that Crich was T50.
 
How did I miss this?

Plumbly 7, would you possibly share this document (either pubic or private via email)? I have documents from the NTM which I am awaiting clearance to share but that name does occur on documents I have.
 
First off, I have to make a sincere apology – I've had most of this information for awhile and reached most of these conclusions quite some time ago. In fact, I probably could have posted this as early as three years ago this month, so sorry about that. In my defense, or at least by way of mitigation, a couple things like photos have cropped up in the interim, so there's that. Still, sorry for the wait.

Note: if you don't want to wade through the thread of discovery and discussion below, my final conclusion is given in the following...


I will probably work all this up into a proper stand-alone Article on the subject in the near future (presumably here in the Police Box History sub-forum), but am presenting this here as a regular posting as it allows a more freewheeling approach and may illicit feedback that might help flesh out the story and/or correct any stupid mistakes in logic or evidence I may have made before committing things to a more formal format.

Anyway, as I'm sure anyone who's reading this will know, it's been a longstanding question and hotly debated topic as to where exactly the Crich Met Box originally stood when in service. Seems about the time of the major refurb in 2006 there was an explosion of interest and a lot of contradictory stories were promulgated on the subject – things like it was on Ealing Broadway, etc. Most compelling was the idea that it was in the Tooting area due to the placard inside the phone cupboard, which seems to be original to the inner cupboard door, saying the box's phone was connected to the Tooting Police Station. While there were many interpretations to this, the only one that fit the SOP of Met Boxes is that it was a Tooting sub-division box, but we've never had a picture of one as a Mark 4 so no real confirmation in principle or as a specific location.

Of interest is that most all of these ignored the one piece of hard evidence that was readily available on line; that contained in the original text for the Grade II Listing of the Crich Box, dated 14 April 1987 (only four years after its arrival in Crich):

“... This box was originally sited on the North Circular Road, London, and it was removed to its present site in 1983.”

That's about as far from Tooting as you can get, being on the other side of the Thames.

With so many contradictory stories and evidence, it seemed almost hopeless to think we could narrow it down to a range of actual Box locations, much less a single one.

Then, in summer of 2014, the intrepid duo of Mark Johnson and Matt Sanders took up the challenge of documenting the Crich Box in its current sate, and in the case of Matt with the specific intention of replicating it. Their first foray to the Tramway Museum resulted in some great photos, and also some indication from one of the people who had been there in 1983 that there was some info on the electrical board inside the Box that had been visible when it was originally brought to Crich and hooked up to their phone system. At first he seemed to remember that it had a name beginning in “F” - maybe “Finchley,” but later came back and said he thought it was “Fulham.”

Well, that led to a lot of speculation and back & forth in the comments of Matt's build diary. More research led to my noticing that some older photos of the unpainted bottom part of the multi-section electrical board showed some inscribed words partially visible at the top – I thought I made out “F. ... ITY DEPT” --

Crich_Electrical_Board.jpg

RelayBoxClose.jpg

RelayBoxopen.jpg

It didn't take much of a stretch to deduce “F. … ELECTRICITY DEPT”, but that still didn't seem to help much with what we had on hand at the time.

Well, when our dedicated researchers went back a month later they were armed with a screwdriver (sonic, of course) and took off the relay box to expose the rest of the inscription --

Before...
Crich Electrical Panel Wording--Before-(DSCF4255).JPG

After...
Crich Electrical Panel Wording--After-(DSCF4258).JPG


It could now be clearly seen that it says “F.U.D.C  ELECTRICITY DEPT.”


Much research followed.

First, there were very few districts listed in the Met List as sites for Boxes that started with the letter “F”:

Fairlop
Falconwood
Farleigh
Farnborough
Feltham
Finchley
Finsbury
Finsbury Park
Foots Cray
Forest Gate
Forest Hill
Forty Hill
Friern-Barnet
Fulham
Fulwell


Now, what about that “U.D.C.” after the “F.”? That stands for “Urban District Council”, a specific level of local governmental organization that took over from the old Parish system by act of Parliament in 1894 and generally lasted until 1974, with other levels above and below it. Only five of the above names were actually constituted as Urban District Councils at the time the Met Box system was started (per lists in wikipedia; UDCs formed 1894-1895 and UDCs formed 1896-1974):

Farnborough
Feltham
Finchley
Foots Cray
Friern-Barnet


Additional research dug up a document that related the history of London Area Power Supply companies ("London Area Power Supply: A Survey of London's Electric Lighting and Power Stations” by M.A.C. Horne - 2012).

It seems that early on the UK government made the determination (The Electric Lighting Act of 1882) that the most efficient way to encourage the development of electrical distribution was to favor its production through the “municipal enterprise” of local authorities, some of which were already suppling water, gas and tramways, This Act encouraged local councils in various ways to help them take the lead in the production of electricity at a local level, either directly or by giving them preference in buying up existing plants. Included in the above document is a listing of these early providers that took up the gauntlet (by the 50s, most had been bought out by larger, regional concerns). Of note is that around the time of the early Box placements there were only three local power generators that started with the letter “F” (also noting that generally these suppliers generated or distributed power only for their own districts) –

Foots Cray
Fulham
Finchley


Fulham was never a U.D.C., but rather it was an M.B.C. (Municipal Borough Council), so it can be eliminated. Further, though Foots Cray was a U.D.C., it was technically superseded by the Sidcup U.D.C. in 1921, and regardless the electrical company there was styled the “Foots Cray Electrical Supply Co.” (which was then taken over by the County of London Electrical Supply Co. in 1936). That leaves only Finchley, which actually did provide power as the Finchley Urban District Council.

For primary source confirmation I looked up the Met's own Pocket Directory for 1929 (MEPO 4/171 at the National Archives in Kew (www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/). On pages 109-115 of that document is a listing of electrical supply companies by Division (though some Divisions crossed into more than one area), and lists only three suppliers that begin with an “F” as follows:

Fulham Borough Council (in B Division)
Foots Cray Electricity Supply Co., Ltd. (in R Division)
Finchley Urban District Council (in S Division, though it also supplied power in parts of Y Division)


So, based on cross-referencing all of the above it looks like we have a winner for what the “F.U.D.C.” is referring to, specifically Finchley Urban District Council. But therein lies a small problem, which itself may lead to an interesting revelation.

The problem is that Finchley changed its governmental structure from being an Urban District Council to being a slightly more powerful Municipal Borough Council in 1933 (remaining so until 1965), while Crich is a Mark 4 Met Box, which from all evidence can date to no earlier than some time during WWII. So how is this possible when any electrical board provided by Finchley after 1933 (New Old Stock notwithstanding) should have been inscribed with F.M.B.C. rather than F.U.D.C.?

More contradictions, but all is not lost.

Back in July 2014, during their first trip to Crich, Mark and Matt were also able to obtain copies of some contemporaneous documents concerning the acquisition of the Crich Met Box. While nothing is definitive, taken in context with the above they're most illuminating.

We haven't been given permission to post scans of the original docs, but text excerpts should be fine.

They were originally considering acquisition of the Blackwall Tunnel North Box from the London Fire Brigade, but it's location and condition dissuaded them and they were steered instead to contact the Met directly.

In the notes on their visit to Hendon on 7th December 1982 is the following (emphasis added by me):

“The MP have one spare telephone box stored in the open at Hendon, which they are prepared to donate to the TMS. The box is in reasonable state, with minor damage to the concrete shell particularly at the top around the illuminated glass panels. The interior has been stripped except for the electrical telephone connection panel. Some panes of glass are broken including the access to the telephone, but the frames are intact. The lamp housing on the top roof is missing but a spare exists and would be made available to us. The glass panels below the roof require some work to restore the blue background.”

It goes on to say that the Met would make available a set of drawings so that the Tramway Museum could reconstruct the interior, along with the painting specification.

Another document relating a summary of events leading to the donation and delivery (undated, but by internal reference from late 1983) has some additional nuggets:

“... We than had a phone call from the 'Outside Works” department of the Metropolitan Police themselves, who had recovered one from a site alongside the North Circular Road, and were thinking what to do with it. Just before Christmas last year I ventured out to Hendon where, on the site of part of the old airfield, there is now a large administrative complex; the entrances to all the sections are marked with blue Tardis-type boxes modified for their new duties.”

"I was greeted by the Principal Surveyor and one of his assistants, and we went to look at the 'exhibits' in the corner of the yard. The Tardis was a bit travel-stained, but I was assured that we could repair it quite easily with the concrete equivalent of Plastic Padding, and the missing parts could be provided from the remains of other boxes, including the flashing light on top.”

It goes on to relate how they weren't sure how they were going to transport it, but that the Met then volunteered to do so if the museum provided a concrete base to put it on. At first the Met seemed anxious to get things delivered, with some consternation at the delays in engineering things on the Museum's end, but that gradually their attitude shifted as they mysteriously seemed less bothered by the time scale. The reason for this became apparent when the Box was finally delivered in June 1983 as the Box had been completely renovated by the Met...

“... ; the surprise was to see a fully – restored Tardis complete with interior fittings and electrical work.”

These bits of data are invaluable. From them we see they were told the Box did indeed come from 'alongside' the North Circular Road. Further, that the electrical panel we've been looking at with the “F.U.D.C. ELECTRICITY DEPT” inscription is the ONLY original part of the Crich box's interior. All the rest, including the desk, cabinets and phone signs, where “donated” from another box at Hendon (or the remains of same).

This solves a lot of problems with some of our data. If we take the Met's statements as relayed at the time by the TMS at face value, then the electrical board is original to the Box and so the concrete shell did indeed come from somewhere on or very near the North Circular Road, while the interior came from somewhere else (by the internal signage, from a Box that once stood in the Tooting sub-division).

Of course that still doesn't solve the problem with the wording on that electrical panel being older than it should be for a Mark 4. Or does it?

Here's where a small leap in thinking might be necessary, but one that's got an internal logic to it.

When we look at all the Boxes in the area that was part of Finchley U.D.C., we see that most of them were S Division Boxes in the north and east (one of which was on the North Circular), so would have almost certainly been early Mark 3's and likely too new to require replacement (barring accident) until well into the era of the Mark 5's (50s and 60s). Three in the south and east were in Y Division, however (Y14, Y15 & Y26), one of which just happened to be on (later just off of) the North Circular Road at High Road Finchley – Y14 (the other two were well south of it).

Y14 was one of the original 21 Wood Green Mark 1 boxes that went active in January 1930. Further, while its original position (per a 1936 OS map) was on the southeast corner of the junction, outside the Green Man P.H., by about 1945 (per 1944-1945 RAF aerial photos in Google Earth) the intersection had been streamlined from its original awkward northward jog to a smooth transition “S” curve, possibly as a wartime measure to improve traffic flow. Where the Met Box and a GPO kiosk had been was now the middle of the roadway, so the Met Box was moved to the east side of the High Road, a little to the north of the new North Circular roadway.

Y14--Google Earth View - Dec1944-Dec1945.PNG

Exactly this situation occurred about the same time with the Mark 2 at Ruxley Corner (P2), which it just so happens was also replaced by a Mark 4 in the process, so it's not at all a stretch that Y14 may well have also been replaced with a Mark 4 at the time of the move, or soon thereafter since most remaining Mark 1's were slated to be replaced by newer models by the early 50s.

Now, something has always bothered me about the Crich electrical board. It's too small, with obvious filler boards added in above the inscribed teak board to make up the difference. The Trench plans (drawn up at the Mark 2 to Mark 3 transition circa early 1935) specify a much larger single board and the brackets to support it. Glasgow boxes, which are patterned after Mark 2's, also have this larger board.

As a comparison:

Crich --
Crich_Electrical_Board.jpg

Trench --
GPO_PA350_Specs-1937--Electrical_Board.JPG

Avoncroft --
Avoncroft_Box_Electrical_Board-Small(starcross).jpg

Looking at the electrical requirements of the early boxes vs later ones, it becomes obvious that they needed less space, having only simple relays for the top lights and no other complex phone or signaling equipment. In fact there are notes in memos in the National Archives that the Mark 1 wooden boxes even had to have their telephone cabinets enlarged to accommodate the later PA 150MP telephones.

So, here's the leap – if, as we suspect, most Mark 4's were wartime or immediate postwar replacements for damaged, worn out or moved boxes, then considering the war and postwar supply restrictions it's not much of a stretch at all to think that perfectly usable teak wood would be recycled and transferred to the new Mark 4 from the original Mark 1 box it was replacing, which itself was erected when said board would have been marked “F.U.D.C. ELECTRICITY DEPT.”

To my mind, all of this seems to be logical and internally supported by the evidence. If so, then the question is answered – the outer concrete shell of the Crich Box is the resited Y14 in East Finchley.

Here's a photo from the 1950s (after the move) of the Green Man P.H., showing the GPO kiosk that was moved in the opposite direction to the Met Box --

Y14-TheGreenMan-Finchley-c1955.jpg


This junction is also known as Glanfield's Corner, named after the garage and motorcycle showroom Glanfield Lawrence on the northwest corner.

Some map extracts:

1913 (before the building of the North Circular Road) --

Y14--Glanfield Corner--1913 OS Map Extract 1-2500.png


1936 (showing the original Box Site and the awkward jog in the roadway) --

Y14--Glanfield Corner--1936 OS Map Extract 1-2500.png


1952 (showing the Resite, likely done before the end of 1945) --

Y14--Glanfield Corner--1952 OS Map Extract 1-1250.png


1969-1970 --

Y14--Glanfield Corner--1969-1970 OS Map Extract 1-2500.png


Finally, here's a photo I found looking north, dated as being from 1958 –

Y14--Site 2-Glanfield's Corner - 1958 (N. Circular and High Road Finchley looking N.).jpg

You can see signage for the Glanfield Lawrence garage and showroom on the left, and across the road, off in the background...

Y14--Site 2-Glanfield's Corner - 1958 - Blowup.JPG

A bit blurry to be sure, but definitely not a Mark 5, while the roof looks too low to be a Mark 2 or Mark 3, and the sign lintels look too prominent to be a Mark 1.

So, if my observations and deductions are correct, this is quite probably a view of the Crich Box in-situ.

Metbox Catalog link for Y14 - http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=8218.msg104297#msg104297

Thoughts?





 
Thank you Alan. As a graduate in History, I find this is a fascinating read which is impeccably researched, coherently argued and logical in its conclusions.

One minor point if I may: MBC doesn't stand for Municipal Bureau Council but rather Municipal Borough Council. These were unitary authorities which were introduced under The Municipal Corporations Act of 1835 - each authority had an elected town council, consisting of a mayor, aldermen and councillors.

The 1835 Act of Parliament was subsequently amended in 1842 and, as the franchise was extended, it was replaced by the Municipal Corporations Act 1882. The 1882 Act and the Local Government Act 1933 provided the statutory basis for municipal boroughs up to their abolition in 1974.

I hope this helps.

T
 
Yeah, I caught that mis-spelling and corrected it (along with some other bits), apparently while you were reading.  :)

Thanks for the added notes though Tony - my post already seemed a bit long to include such additional details, however interesting.
 
Hi Alan,

Your research and deductions do sway me into believing you may be correct.

Thank you for taking the time to do this.

By the way, obviously the Flasher Relay which was blocking the "F.U.D.C" had been moved before we got there......  ;)
 
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