Was the Newbery Prop used in TimeFlight? or just the topsign?

Started by hb88banzai, Feb 23, 2013, 08:45 am

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hb88banzai

Quote from: warmcanofcoke on Feb 22, 2013, 06:49 pm
TardisWindows016.jpg
TardisWindows019.jpg

That last photo from Time-Flight with the TARDIS on its side was of the redressed Newbery Box, I thought, not the TYJ.

warmcanofcoke

According to Anthony Sibley's TARDIS history at Glen's TARDIS Library, the TYJ was used - however "The prop appears with one of the Newbery Box's sign housings on its front side for this story only . "
why doesn't the Guide mention them? - Oh, it's not very accurate.
Oh? - I'm researching the new edition.

Volpone

Feb 23, 2013, 07:16 pm #2 Last Edit: Feb 24, 2013, 02:17 pm by warmcanofcoke
Any time you're seeing the TARDIS on its side--particularly during the Davison episodes, it is almost certainly the redressed Newbery box.  Why?  The fiberglass box was more fragile and not designed to be assembled on its side--particularly with actors climbing on and around it.  

Now I will defer to your source, depending on his credibility--I mean if he was actually on the prop crew for the show his claims hold a lot more weight--but logically, from everything written about the boxes, that should be the Newbery box--especially if they are using the Newbery door signs on it.
"My dear Litefoot, I've got a lantern and a pair of waders, and possibly the most fearsome piece of hand artillery in all England. What could possibly go wrong?"
-The Doctor.

warmcanofcoke

well I looked on the website and they claim the history of the Tardis props was pieced together with the help of:
Quote
Tony Harding
Ian Scoones
Mat Irvine
Mike Tucker
Edward Thomas
Verity Lambert
John Nathan Turner
Colin Baker
and Purple Blancmange


http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~trekker/policeboxes/props.html

Also there are details between the two props both in the windows and on the corner posts that make me think the claims of this website might be right.

I think that if you or I made this series we would have used the wood prop for the scenes inside the concord -but I don't think the same reverence or understanding was used by the production staff at the time.

Jon Pertwee always complained the people who would assemble / dissemble the set didn't care about the props and often damaged them.
why doesn't the Guide mention them? - Oh, it's not very accurate.
Oh? - I'm researching the new edition.

DoctorWho8

Quote from: volpone on Feb 23, 2013, 07:16 pm
Any time you're seeing the TARDIS on its side--particularly during the Davison episodes, it is almost certainly the redressed Newbery box.  Why?  The fiberglass box was more fragile and not designed to be assembled on its side--particularly with actors climbing on and around it. 

Now I will defer to your source, depending on his credibility--I mean if he was actually on the prop crew for the show his claims hold a lot more weight--but logically, from everything written about the boxes, that should be the Newbery box--especially if they are using the Newbery door signs on it.


Nope. In the case of Time Flight, it was all TYJ with the front sign box replaced with one from the Newbery for some reason. I think it was like this in Earthshock too.
Bill "the Doctor" Rudloff

galacticprobe

Feb 24, 2013, 05:10 am #5 Last Edit: Feb 24, 2013, 05:18 am by galacticprobe
Quote from: warmcanofcoke on Feb 23, 2013, 09:15 pm
well I looked on the website and they claim the history of the Tardis props was pieced together with the help of:
Quote
Tony Harding
Ian Scoones
Mat Irvine
Mike Tucker
Edward Thomas
Verity Lambert
John Nathan Turner
Colin Baker
and Purple Blancmange


http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~trekker/policeboxes/props.html



Not that I doubt those involved with compiling the history of the TARDIS prop (especially Purple, who always seems to be right on the money), but there does seem to be some inconsistencies in places. Not long ago I had a discussion with someone regarding this "History" and the original Hartnell version of the prop. The "History" states that while the Police Public Call Box signs were made with a black background instead of a blue one, like real police box signs were, the lettering on the Hartnell Phone Door panel was done in blue just like the real Police Boxes. Yet, in all of the color reference and publicity photos of the original Hartnell prop, the lettering on that PTO panel is clearly black, not blue. (It if is in blue it's the darkest blue I've ever seen: so dark it looks blacker than the blackwash on the dirtied up areas of the rest of the prop.)

So tend to agree with volpone on the Newbery being used for the sideways TARDIS, and I have read somewhere in one of the 'Who' documentary books (darned if I can find it now) the same thing; the fiberglass TY-J box wasn't strong enough to support the weight of the actors climbing or jumping into or out of it when it was at an odd angle, but as beaten up as it was, the wooden Newbery was strong enough to handle that sort of abuse. (It sort of became the "stunt TARDIS".)

But the discussion of which prop was used for a particular scene in a particular episode is causing us to drift off course (or off topic). The topic is the measurements of the parts of the TY-J box's corner posts. (We should adjust our drift compensators to get us back on course.)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

warmcanofcoke

masquetardis_zps24bdd57f.jpg
Newbery

06.jpg
Altered Newbery

Modified-Newbury-Box3.jpg
Altered Newbery

Note the Newbery posts do not have as pronounced curved mouldings as the TYJ.

TardisWindows016.jpg
TardisWindows019.jpg
TYJ

To me the designs are different. The Newbery has blocky posts and the Tom Yardly Jones has curved edges.
why doesn't the Guide mention them? - Oh, it's not very accurate.
Oh? - I'm researching the new edition.

timerotor

Hi guys, this is a tough one. Firstly because I can see why logically you would think the production would have used the sturdy wooden TARDIS prop, because someone has told everyone that the TYJ was flimsy.
I can assure you that it was/ is not.
I belive that what you see here is The TYJ box now owned by Andrew Beech - on it's back (with one NEWBERY style sign over the front threshold at the top)

Even tho the clear lines and mouldings don't seem to be very clear to the eye.

Firstly, it was bolted together and had a steel frame inside, which would actually make it structurally as solid as a rock (while remaining a little flexible) - at this time of filming there were no doors on the reverse side of the prop, so the actors would actually be standing on the studio floor or rostra and acting climbing 'out of the TARDIS - bearing very little weight on it as they did so (enough to wobble, but not break)
But also gleaning from these images, the pillars are consistent to the details in the TYJ mould, which are different from the NEWBERY plus the damage to the top of the corner post is also consistent with that of this particular TYJ, damage that exists up to this day.
The top of the corner post in the forground is sporting a split in the seam in the centre causing a ridge or break in the flat surface, and the corner cap is damaged, and looks like it has a hole in the top. This also is a feature of the post cap NOW!

I don't know if placing the NEWBERY sign on the front would have obstructed the classic line of TYJ design even further, however it looks like this is the case as it's fitted higher than the ones on the side.

another key factor, is that the windows are narrower on the NEWBERY box and have different dimensions to the TYJ - the box here in the screen grab from timeflight looks like the TYJ windows to me.-and the bolts in the frame of the 'Police Pubic Call Box' sign are also consistent with the TYJ (the signs boxes on the sides of which are non interchangeable as the front and back are... but a fixed part of the mould).

(none of us were there - or have a definitive answer, but THAT is my opinion, I can only say it as I see it.)

Best wishes.
MBH timerotor ;)

MBH TYJ ref 2.JPG
MBH TYJ timeflight side.jpgMBH TYJ REF top.jpg

image one (face on) is the prop today, in the timeflight pic, it is on the right (the top/or front of the box) facing the side, it is NOT the sign and side facing the front of this shot.
image 2 (timeflight screen grab) is the unseen side of the box on the left of image one. of note: the NEWBERY box sign on the right sits higher up and the first roof stack on the front of the Yardley Jones box was part of the sign lintel - which has been removed, so you don't see it here, all you see is the top of the Newbery sign (which is considerably thicker up to 3 times the depth (sideways on) -so you cannot see the first roof stack, thus further distorting the TYJ shape/design! The pillar cap is heavily shadowed which distorts the shapes, but it is there.
image 3 (MBH TYJ top) is a clean view of a side with no damage & no distorting shadows. This is a good example of how the first roof stack should look above the doors, but its gone in the time flight screen grab. see the NEXT image! MBH example TYJ SIGN 1.jpg
this image shows a TARDIS prop sign from TYJ with the signage fixed in it upside down. what you see as the bottom with the block in the middle should be the first roof stack above the doors! LOOK AGAIN...correct way up.jpg
NOW you see it, so when the NEWBERY sign was placed it was less detailed and just had a flat top!
I hope this makes sense to SOMEONE! LOL Mark  :P
living, learning, loving, refurbing, & preserving!

Rassilons Rod

Also of note, is that on the side that is visible, the far right hammered glass window pane (in the Timeflight photo, with the prop on it's back, it is top right).

On the Newbery box, there was a corner knocked off it at some stage (perhaps as early as The Invasion Of Time, I can't recall right now. Also not at home so I can't get screen grabs). This was still evident at least in Logopolis. Interestingly this particular pane does look rather newer than the others in this pic.

That said, I am in agreement with our friendly neighbourhood time rotor. The signs on the sides are clearly TYJ style. Now one of the TYJ boxes did get some old style signage at some stage (I noted what timerotor said about the front signs in this pic). But I don't think that the Newbery ever got any TYJ signs, so given that the visible signage in this is basically full width (and not more-or-less the same as the width of the windows) that clinches it for me anyway. This is surely one of the TYJ boxes. :)

Edit: Now I look again, that pic of Peter outside the "Altered Newberry" further up (wow, that's a dark blue) does seem to show a replaced window pane. But I don't think that changes anything :)
In the cities in the streets there's a tension you can feel,
The breaking strain is fast approaching, guns and riots.
Politicians gamble and lie to save their skins,
And the press get fed the scapegoats,
Public Enema Number One.

Volpone

Well it sounds like the initial question this thread was spun off for is pretty definitively settled.  It is too bad Joseph Campbell isn't with us any more.  With the Internet we have entered a new era of mythology and social storytelling.  The Newbery box got pressed into service a number of times early in Peter Davison's era.  At least once it was used on its side and the story developed that the TYJ box wasn't designed in a way that it could be laid on its side but "Timeflight" shows that they did use it on its side. 

Now that I think about it, the vast majority of the time the Newbery got used wasn't for strength.  In "Logopolis" the Barnett Met Box was torn down weeks before shooting so the crew needed a last-minute stand in and it was pressed into service.  I wonder if the reason it was used in the Peter Davison promotional photos is because the TYJ was being used for shooting somewhere else.  Luckily by this point they didn't have to do the thing from the Hartnell story, where they broke her up and mocked up temporary walls. :) 

Can anyone add anything on that?  Did the Newbery wind up in use because the TYJ was needed elsewhere (whether for shooting or maintenance, etc)? 
"My dear Litefoot, I've got a lantern and a pair of waders, and possibly the most fearsome piece of hand artillery in all England. What could possibly go wrong?"
-The Doctor.

gerald lovell

As I understand it, the altered Newbery prop was used after "Logopolis" in "Castrovalva" and "Black Orchid".  In the former, it was because they did seek something sturdier for the cast to clamber about on and in the latter because they wanted the scene on the front lawn where numerous cast members exit the box without cutting away and the backless Newbery enabled this to be done.

Mark

I thought the TYJ had back doors which would have enabled the hordes to exits the box without cutting?

Rassilons Rod

After Logopolis, we see the Newberry with a back (from the inside at least). With a black curtain fitted, the TYJ could easily do the same job though, either with the back doors open or simply not installed.
In the cities in the streets there's a tension you can feel,
The breaking strain is fast approaching, guns and riots.
Politicians gamble and lie to save their skins,
And the press get fed the scapegoats,
Public Enema Number One.

timerotor

Quote from: rassilonsrod on Mar 01, 2013, 12:26 pm
Also of note, is that on the side that is visible, the far right hammered glass window pane (in the Timeflight photo, with the prop on it's back, it is top right).

On the Newbery box, there was a corner knocked off it at some stage (perhaps as early as The Invasion Of Time, I can't recall right now. Also not at home so I can't get screen grabs). This was still evident at least in Logopolis. Interestingly this particular pane does look rather newer than the others in this pic.
this isn't in fact what you're seeing at all, although you'd be forgiven for thinking so..., what you see is a smear of black paint from inside the box, when it was painted black. these windows if painted on the back look as if they are painted on the front or as you thought broken, so they never got chipped (very strong and also flexible), just painted accidentally black in places (think of the one on the front) by a rather careless painter,

That said, I am in agreement with our friendly neighbourhood time rotor. The signs on the sides are clearly TYJ style. Now one of the TYJ boxes did get some old style signage at some stage (I noted what timerotor said about the front signs in this pic). But I don't think that the Newbery ever got any TYJ signs, so given that the visible signage in this is basically full width (and not more-or-less the same as the width of the windows) that clinches it for me anyway. This is surely one of the TYJ boxes. :)
Thanks for agreeing with me mate :-)
Edit: Now I look again, that pic of Peter outside the "Altered Newbery" further up (wow, that's a dark blue) does seem to show a replaced window pane. But I don't think that changes anything :)
living, learning, loving, refurbing, & preserving!