Couple more clickable thumbs to show the progression of the St. John logo (on their manuals, at least) through to the Hartnell period.



1950 - 40th Edition

Note that this 1950 version finally looks almost identical to the Cushing box plaque.  Only differences are very slight to the letter-to-cross point alignments in the upper three arms.  Lines, bottom separator, fonts, spacing and overall alignment (particularly of the lower cross to wording) are all but identical.  Animals, as best can be compared considering the poor quality of the Cushing pics, are also the same.




1964 Edition of a 1958 publication (confirmed same logo as on 1960 Edition) - New publication now just entitled "First Aid", but also now sponsored by St. Andrew's Ambulance Association and the British Red Cross Society.

Note that as of approximately 1958 (1960 and 1964 confirmed) they have reverted to exactly the same circa late 1930s cover art of the logo that ironageman used as the basis for his beautiful .eps reproduction of a St. John Ambulance plaque. 

Very possible this version of the seal was in use on plaques (including for Police Boxes) in the 30s, the late 50s and much of the 60s, though in the 50s (and possibly late 40s) was probably alongside ones identical to the Cushing box's.  Quite a few assumptions here since the plaques were probably done completely separately by different contractors, but the coupling of the 1950 book cover and the Cushing plaque suggests some correlation is possible.  We need to see pics of more original Association plaques, preferably with places and dates of use, to make better conclusions.

By the way Teletran, not to take things too seriously, the reason I say that the Hartnell round thingy reminiscent of a St. John plaque wouldn't be simply a reference or association to the main branch of the Order is that the Knights of Malta crest isn't in a circle within a circle like the Hartnell one is as there is no wording that needs to be included. 

The image is clearly supposed to be a St. John Ambulance badge as it is the white cross on a black circle within another white circle with a further black line circle where it is supposed to underline and set apart the lettering - it's just that there are no letters (just variations in texture that look all the world like it was made from a corrugated paper plate) and no animals that I can see. 

I'll try to post a pic later, but don't have the ability to capture from VHS so have to rely on a digital camera with a really bad shutter lag time and since it's SP the still frame is, shall we say, somewhat less than useful.

Oh, and just for further information, the actual crest for the English Chartered branch of the Order of St. John is in color, even though all pics of the plaques I've seen are purely black and white. 

There's even a flag that consists of a white maltese cross on a black flag with the lions and unicorns in gold.  There are some quite beautiful samples of gold medals with a white enamel cross - really makes things pop.

Curiouser and curiouser...
Here's another form of the 'something completely different' version. Nice to see that the light consistently comes from the top left in these things.

Because of the old 60's tv line resolution (405?), the detail of the badge wouldn't be that clear so why bother (Beeb approach!)

Is there a shot where the design is at all clear? If so, I could have a go at capturing it.
I looked though a some of the early stories on VHS, but couldn't find a good shot. Best I could see was a faint grey circle. But then my videos are NTSC, so they've probably lost another quality step.

I think the budget for those early episodes was not much more than £1000.00, so a paper plate was probably it!

Crispin

I just want to make it perfectly clear that my previous post was intended as a joke, still it was an interesting idea.

Quote from: teletran board=film thread=1120142790 post=1121822139I just want to make it perfectly clear that my previous post was intended as a joke, still it was an interesting idea.

I knew that was probably the case, but pounced on it nonetheless to elucidate further the dodgy aspects of the Hartnell "plaque".   

Sorry to have taken advantage like that.

Quote from: scarfwearer board=film thread=1120142790 post=1121807570Is there a shot where the design is at all clear? If so, I could have a go at capturing it. . . .

The best shots of it are in the Pilot as the TARDIS had yet to have the artex and paint weathering added that so effectively camouflaged the sign for the next six years, but if you don't have a commercial tape of it (it was in "The Hartnell Years") I wouldn't bother, as even that leaves something to be desired.

Best scenes are as Barbara and Ian (and later the Doctor) are chatting outside the TARDIS and especially as Barbara pushes her way into the console room.  That's a little over 20 minutes in, if memory serves.

Ironageman - Great pic!

Yep, it appears to be their official motto crest (notice there are eight, one for each point of the cross).  They also used it (in colour) on the First Day Issue Cover for the commemorative stamps issued in 1987 to mark the Centenary of (I presume) the Brigade.



(Click thumb for full size pic)

Here's the best I could get from my NTSC copy:



While I was at it, I also grabbed this:



This is the only indication I've ever seen that the inner and outer doors are separate, visible for a split second and not canon, 'cos this is the unbroadcast pilot.

Crispin

Sorry to go off-tardis again but all this St John's information is fascinating. I love the motto on that last sign, words to aspire to (discrimination presumably meaning triage). I worked next to St John's in Clerkenwell, London, for five years while I served my apprenticeship. There is a lovely museum at St John's gate which I think is the ancient Priory of the Knights Hospitallers.
Has anyone been there?
TG

Great pics, Scarfwearer - I think better than any I was able to get.

Note also that the outer circle of the "plaque" is only 4.5"-5" rather than the 6" that appears to have been a standard for a real one.

Here is a big, detailed image of the artwork in the center portion of the current "St. John Ambulance" crest (clickable for full res pic).



If you compare it with the previously posted current window sticker (copy below), you will see that they are practically identical, with the above appearing to be concept art that was only slightly smoothed and simplified for the final logo art.

Timegirl - I don't think it's really all that off topic. 

The resonance of things like the symbolism and the mottoes, etc., in the St. John seal (to say nothing of the Police Box) with the Doctor have always been interesting. 

The TARDIS being sentient and semi-sapient, it could be argued that the chameleon circuit being "broken" is only a symptom, a convenience for her - that the TARDIS sensed a purpose symbolized by the Police Box when she first changed into one that finally synced with what the first Doctor was looking for in his exile (whether he knew it or not), locking into that form as being most appropriate, and she's stayed that way because she knows it is a fundamental part of who the Doctor is.  Broken circuits are just the excuse she gives him.

Also, haven't you ever noticed that the TARDIS has always had a tendency to show up where (and when) he is most needed?  The Doctor really is a knight-errant of sorts, specializing in a kind of first aid and triage for space-time on a galactic scale, again often despite himself.  The TARDIS is simply his trusty steed and confidante.

This is part of what has interested many of us in the Doctor's character and his TARDIS, hence the interest in these humble symbols.  Even if the St. John symbology does apply directly only to the first two Doctors (and the alternate universe Cushing Doctor) in being exclusively on their boxes, in principle it applies to all of them.

Then there is the idea that the TARDIS has never exactly duplicated a real Police Box because of that self-same reflection of the Doctor's personality that she is in such intimate contact with.  Hence the new TARDIS and its control room are merely a reflection of the present quirks in him and therefore any "errors" would be blamed on that.  Thus, aesthetic considerations aside, really there can be no errors, only differences, and those differences themselves become intrinsically interesting as they resonate and relate to everything else.

Me thinks I begin to ramble.