Dino wrote:


Time Lord Chapters according to hierarchy (mainly named from the Time Academy Houses):
Prydon Chapter (Prydonians): colours, scarlet and orange.
Arcal Chapter (Arcalians): colour, green.
Patrex Chapter (Patrexes): colour heliotrope (a light purple, but darker than lavender).
Cerulean Chapter (Ceruleans): colour, subdued light blue.
Drome Chapter (Dromeians): colour, silver-grey.
Scendeles Chapter (Scendeleans): colour, unknown (possibly because their bureaucracy could not establish a colour), but rumours say their colour was quite subdued (possibly a very pale grey).

That's all six of the Time Lord Chapter Houses. (And of course, the Lord President of the High Council's headdress is white, and if I remember correctly had some gold trim other than just the Seal of Rassilon. Of course I'm open to corrections on all of these, though after reading through a transcript of "Deadly Assassin" the dialogue follows:

Runcible: "Already the Time Lords are gathering, donning seldom worn robes with their colourful collar insignia. The scarlet and orange of the Prydonians, the green of the Arcalians, the heliotrope of the Patrexes, and so on."

Since the colors end with "and so on", my guess is whoever put together the list of colors did so from novelizations or some other sources, so all those are up for debate as only the three mentioned in the dialogue are canon.)


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That's some good research there, Dino.

Interestingly, I remember reading the novel & thinking, "I'm sure there weren't that many colours when I watched the programme!"

I'm re watching it now, & there seems to be only three main colours on display:

Red, Orange & a pale creamy colour.... so not the same as the book!

Oddly, it says the Prydon colour is red & orange, but the collar you posted is red, whereas the collar Tom wears is a much lighter orange, yet Tom is identified as a Prydonian...

So I'm a bit confused.... are all the red & orange robes in the televised programme supposed to be Pydonian?
Also, I just noticed that Goth is wearing orange robes & Borusa is wearing red- yet they are both supposed to be Prydonian!

Anyway, as I'm cosplaying Tom, I'm going for orange for my colour.

This is how it has turned out:

 

 

The fibreglass is quite thin on the original props, so when the light shines through, you get this lovely effect where you can see a nice mix of colours, sometimes orange, sometimes red or even yellow, so I tried to mimic this by adding layers of red & yellow to the orange base layer to try to create depth.

I spent ages looking for an oversized orange bathrobe, but with no luck, so I eventually decided to buy some material & make them myself.
I found two large curtains in a charity shop for only £4.50 for the two!

The colours are not entirely accurate for Tom, as his robe was one solid dark orange colour, but this is a mixture of reds, browns & oranges, but it does look smart! One curtain for the main body, & one for the arms. Sweet!



The curtains all chopped up & ready to sew...



I'm so glad I decided to tackle this build!

Regards,

Russell

Quote from: russellsuthern on May 23, 2018, 06:07 pm
Oddly, it says the Prydon colour is red & orange, but the collar you posted is red, whereas the collar Tom wears is a much lighter orange, yet Tom is identified as a Prydonian...

So I'm a bit confused.... are all the red & orange robes in the televised programme supposed to be Pydonian?
Also, I just noticed that Goth is wearing orange robes & Borusa is wearing red- yet they are both supposed to be Prydonian!

Glad you liked my post, Russell. As for the colors, all Runcible says in the dialogue is "... The scarlet and orange of the Prydonians,..." So it's possible the colors were used in a mixture? (Since you just watched "Assassin", what color were the Prydonian robes? Were they either red or orange, or were they mixed - like one layer over another?) My guess on the headdress is the props people looked at what was asked for and painted things to their interpretation: "Prydonians - scarlet and orange. Okay, guys, make some red ones, and some orange ones!"

Beyond that it gets into speculation on how the Prydonians mixed their "...seldom worn robes...". So sticking to the practicality of costuming and color variations, you mention only seeing red, orange, and pale grey on screen. That's not to say the reds and oranges weren't mixed, at least with regard to the robes, but under the studio lights and camera filters looked like solid orange or solid red. (I remember Tom's Season 18 scarf looking like it was only burgundy and purple. It was only after finding some serious scarf research once the internet came into existence that I earned it had three colors to it, with one being a sort of rust color.)

And also contributing to the color's appearance could be the quality of the recordings back then, not to mention the resolution of the TV screens; so when they made the red and the orange parts of the costume, unless the light hit things just right, most people probably thought everything was red, and the orange was a trick of the light. (Even though the dialogue mentioned the orange, it was in passing and most viewers were probably so fixed on the action and complexity - for the time - of the costume headdresses, that they didn't even pay attention to the mention of "orange".) And for all we know, some of that pale grey you're seeing could be "...the heliotrope of the Patrexes...". Heliotrope is a pale purple, and under studio lights and camera filters could come off as pale grey. (Falling back on the original 'Trek' shirts, those "gold" ones Kirk, Sulu, and some others wore were actually the same lime green as Kirk's wrap-around top and dress uniform. The difference was in the material. The pull-over was velour, which under the studio lighting and camera filters filmed as more gold than anything else. The wrap-around and dress uniform were made from a double-knit gabardine, which reflected more of the true green color. It's why Scotty and the "Red Shirts" ended up in red shirts; the original Engineering color was peachy-sandy, which the velour filmed as very close to the "gold" of the Command shirts. To avoid confusion, when they went into production after the two pilot episodes, they made Engineering red. So material, lighting, and camera filters - along with resolution of the tape/film and the receiving TV screen - all have something to do with how color is presented "on screen".)

As for the images of that headdress I posted, we all know fiberglas turns a deep yellowish over time, so it's also possible that anything orange that might have shown through could have turned more towards the red as the fiberglas yellowed. (I'm not an artist so I'm only guessing at how colors like this work.) The headdress does have some orange "scuff" marks on the front "fan" area, which I'm not sure if they're intentional or a result of rough handling over the decades. And if I can't remember if the web site the images originally came from said that was actually worn by Tom Baker, only that it was purportedly to have been used on screen in "Assassin".

HA! I found the link to the original thread: http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=7877.0

In the first post it says that it was Cardinal Borusa's collar in the story, which fits with what you've posted (in full) above. (And since this costume piece was old when that photo was taken, I would be very interested in seeing how it looked on screen. I don't have the "Assassin" DVD, and it's been a long while since I've seen that one. Can someone post a couple of screen grabs, please?

Anything more than that regarding the colors and it's anyone's guess.

I hope this helps.

Dino.

These are a few I grabbed from online. I think the Doctor stole his robes just to get in so the Doctors collar at the time was just chance. 'Fellas run off with my robe!'  So it may well have been a mixture.

Hi guys,

Thanks for your comments.
Glad this thread is generating some interest.

I had a good look at my Deadly Assassin DVD today, & came to the following conclusions:

I'm 100% sure there are only 3 colours on show (not including the Presidents white with gold trim robe or the Gold Usher.)

We have:

Red
Orange
Pale cream with lots of gold trim.

Now the fibreglass does change colour depending on the lighting conditions.
In the shade, the red goes dark purple & the cream looks greeny, which gives the illusion of more variety, but it's definitely only 3!!

Not sure if this was on purpose, or a happy accident....

Secondly, a close up look does reveal some variation in different costumes.
Some of the caps have different colours & different levels of decoration.
Some of the robes are plain & some are patterned, (I suspect the costume dept just used up whatever cloth they had...)

But one thing is certain: The robes are never mixed. All the Time Lords wear Red, Orange or cream, but never a combination of those colours.




"Is he alright?  ... Maybe it was something he ate...?"


Now you see him, now you don't...


This photo is particularly interesting:
Goth is in orange robes, Borusa is in red, but they are both Prydonian!


So, a few discrepancies, but I'm sure we all agree that it's a stunning design.

Cheers all.

Russell

Perhaps the different colours within the same chapter indicate rank - Castellan, Chancellor, Cardinal, etc?

Either way, the colour on your collar looks great! Nice work on layering the paint to create the illusion of shifting colours too (and I can't wait to see how your robes turn out!)

Quote from: russellsuthern on May 24, 2018, 11:19 am
Goth is in orange robes, Borusa is in red, but they are both Prydonian!

So, a few discrepancies, but I'm sure we all agree that it's a stunning design.

Not so much of a discrepancy, Russell. Remember Runcible did say "The scarlet and orange of the Prydonians", so they were using two colors for the same Chapter/House. A Prydonian could be seen wearing scarlet (red), or orange, and no one would question why the colors were different (at least in Time Lord society).

Quote from: The14thDr on May 24, 2018, 08:44 pm
Perhaps the different colours within the same chapter indicate rank - Castellan, Chancellor, Cardinal, etc?

I think 14th has a good plausible explanation for this. We have in the dialogue:

Spandrell (after the Doctor is identified via his TARDIS): "A Prydonian renegade, eh? I have to refer this to Chancellor Goth."

And shortly after in the Panopticon:

Runcible (on a monitor screen): "In a moment, I hope to talk to Cardinal Borusa, the leader of the Prydonian Chapter..."

So two levels in the Prydonians: Chancellor Goth and Cardinal Borusa.

(So don't worry about who's <pun!> wearing which color for a Prydonian. Both are correct according to canon.)

Quote from: The14thDr on May 24, 2018, 08:44 pm
Either way, the colour on your collar looks great! Nice work on layering the paint to create the illusion of shifting colours too (and I can't wait to see how your robes turn out!)

And on this I couldn't agree more!

Dino.

Well, you guys could be right, but that would mean that there were a lot of Chancellors & Cardinals at the ceremony!
Talk about a top heavy society!

Actually, I do love the way we Dr Who fans create convoluted back stories to reconcile what they see on the screen to what is said!

Sometimes I think the Dr Who team deliberately created inconsistencies just to keep us on our toes!

Oh well, It's all good fun.
I don't know what I'd do with myself I didn't spend hours in detailed debate concerning Dr Who minutiae!

Regards,

Russell

14th:

Ask & you shall receive!


I'm no seamstress, so I cut & folded the curtains in a way that would leave me minimal sewing.
I used the ruffled bits at the top of the curtains where they hang as the collar & cuffs.
After sewing it all together it looked like this:



Here's the robe on without the collar:



And here it is with the collar:

 



So far, so good!

Hope you like!

My next job is to decorate the collar, then I'll start on the cap.

Thanks for reading,

Regards,

Russell

You know, you have to wear that one out in the park

In regards to why there are more colours and chapters listed than appeared on the show, it's due to Gallifreyan politics. Prydon and Patrex completely dominated the political scene, with Arcal coming soon behind them in prominence.

According to the information gathered over on Rassilon, Omega and that Other guy, as well as information from the TARDIS Data Core, the Patrexian chapter was primarily Gallifrey's philosophers, artists, telepaths and archivists, and although I cannot truly state this as solidly as I can for the other sources, Patrex also seems to have the primary impact in the Intelligence sphere, hinted at in dialogue from Narvin in one of the Gallifrey audios. Most, if not all, of the information we have on the Patrexian chapter comes from the novels, audios and probably a fair amount from Faction Paradox.

Prydon is easily the chapter we know the most about, and this was also the most predominant chapter, due to a variety of factors. From what I gather, one of Prydon's strongest claims to fame is the Time Lords that have come from it's halls. Rassilon was a member of this chapter, as well as the Doctor, and the vast majority of Presidents.

Arcal is the chapter of the researchers and the scientists, and I don't think it'd be too far of a stretch to assume that this is the reason for their prominence.


In regards to the other chapters, Cerul is the hippies, Scendeles wasted all their money on making themselves look better, and Drome were too liberal for Gallifreyan society.


Please note, most of this is speculation, and based upon information from novels (that I mostly haven't read) and audios (that I mostly haven't listened to,) and so I can't actually cite most of it. However, if anyone's interested in Gallifreyan society, culture and politics, Rassilon, Omega and that Other guy is the best source I've found so far. The information on the chapters is mostly within the Gallifreyan Biology, Culture, etc page, which is... honestly, longer than most people have time to look through. The ctrl-f function is invaluable, and some of the most useful terms to search for, if you want to find out more about the chapters, are: Chapter, College, Academy, House, Cousin. There are certainly more, but those are the ones that come to mind.

http://meshyfish.com/~roo
http://meshyfish.com/~roo/docwho1.html
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Chapter
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Gallifreyan_Chapters
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Time_Lord_Academy


Rassilon, Omega and that Other guy has much more detail, however it doesn't have the precise citing often found on the Data Core. It's also open to editing from anyone, and while this can be a boon in that it allows for a better compilation of sources, it also leaves it open to mistakes and those who do not know what they are talking about.

You still need the hat.  If you're stumped, you could get a kickball/dodgeball (dunno what they're called in the UK--red rubber playground ball) and cut that into the hat.

Or, if you've got the patience... and the nerve... you could always cover your head with a lubricant (gelatinous petroleum spread - you know the one) and then have a friend you trust (like the wife) lay some paper mache over your head to get the perfect shape. Just a layer or two should be enough for it to hold its shape, dry quickly, and be strong enough to let you slide it off of your head. (A good shampooing would remove the "release agent" and return your head to looking normal. And like me, your hair is short enough for this <pardon the pun> hair-brained scheme to very possibly work.)

Then you can add more layers of paper mache to the started "skull cap" until you have enough thickness so it's sturdy enough to have the inside wiped clean of the "release agent" that came off with it, and then the cap be taken on and off at will without the risk of damaging it. Then you can decorate and paint it, and add some of those sticky foam pads inside it if needed for added comfort.

Probably not the best idea I've ever had, but it's certainly not the worst!

The robes look really great! Almost a perfect match for what the Doctor and Goth are wearing!

Quote from: TichePotato on May 26, 2018, 12:07 am
In regards to why there are more colours and chapters listed than appeared on the show, it's due to Gallifreyan politics.

This is where we need to be careful as we're straying away from episode/story discussion for the purpose of establishing how or why a prop or costume is made, and into the realm of fan fiction discussion. We want to stick with canon as much as possible, and for the other be as brief as possible since it is mostly non-canon.

Quote from: TichePotato on May 26, 2018, 12:07 am
Rassilon, Omega and that Other guy has much more detail, however it doesn't have the precise citing often found on the Data Core.

While this is true, the owner of the site does have a color-coded legend to let readers know which info is canon (taken from the show, including "Dimensions In Time" and the TVM, and even "Shalka"), licensed sources (official Tech Manuals, Monster Books, etc.), and what's from unreliable sources (role-playing games), and what's fan speculation.

That said, besides the amount of info that went into making this site (which is enough to make your head explode in its own right), one has to also keep track of the color code as you read through the info to know what is true canon, canon from licensed materials, what's unreliable, and what's fan speculation. (It's a great place to go and read through everything. I've been following that site since the mid 1990s. Quick note: the last time the site was updated, according to the date on it, was in 2015, so it's a little behind for the New Series.)

Quote from: TichePotato on May 26, 2018, 12:07 am
It's also open to editing from anyone, and while this can be a boon in that it allows for a better compilation of sources, it also leaves it open to mistakes and those who do not know what they are talking about.

I believe Tiche has switched gears here and is now talking about the TARDIS Wikia, and not "Rassilon, Omega, and That Other Guy" (ROO). ROO is a private web site owned by a former, silent member of TB who is no longer with us - one of those who, as Scarfwearer mentioned in another topic, joined but never posted and as a result his profile expired. Only he can edit that site so the info on it is what he's gleaned from the sources he cites in the color code on each page.

The TARDIS Wikia, however, can be edited by anyone, so we have to take what's on there with (sometimes several) grains of salt. I've seen some things on there that have been blatantly wrong, and edited the info to correct it... only to go back to that same page at a later point for something and find that my corrections have been deleted and the incorrect info restored!

So, IMHO, I suggest we stick with true canon sources, and the dialogue from "Deadly Assassin" (and the imagery - i.e. the President's White with gold garb, not mentioned but seen on screen) is about as canon as you can get when it comes to the Chapter House colors mentioned. (Everything else is speculation unless someone can cite a truly reliable source to make its canonicity unquestionable. As such I've edited my comments up-thread to reflect this.)

Dino.

Quote from: galacticprobe on May 26, 2018, 05:29 am
Or, if you've got the patience... and the nerve... you could always cover your head with a lubricant (gelatinous petroleum spread - you know the one) and then have a friend you trust (like the wife) lay some paper mache over your head to get the perfect shape. Just a layer or two should be enough for it to hold its shape, dry quickly, and be strong enough to let you slide it off of your head. (A good shampooing would remove the "release agent" and return your head to looking normal. And like me, your hair is short enough for this <pardon the pun> hair-brained scheme to very possibly work.)

Dino.

Not a bad idea, but if you can get a snug fitting shower cap or a "bald" cap then that would save you having Vaseline in your hair, & would be also easier to remove.

Chris.

Thanks for your comments and interest,  guys...


Steve: I was planning on wearing it down the disco!!

Tichepotato: wow. You have gone into things in greater detail than I ever could... Reading your post gave me a bit of a headache!

Volpone,  Dino and Davros ...  As I am always looking for the easiest way to get anything  done... The swimming cap is already in the post..

Cheers all.

Russell

You can make your cap the same way you made the cowl.  

Same color of course.



A good way of making a quick paper mache cap is to cellophane your head, tape down all the cellophane, blow up a a balloon inside for a form, then start laying the paste.