The Tom Yardley Jones TARDIS (Original) (1980)

[davidnagel]

[tony farrell]

I've been looking at the plans for the TYJ box and this instruction to the builders in particular:



Now the question which occurs to me is this: Which pre-existing Police Box prop were the casts taken from? It can't be from the Newbery box because (according to the plans currently available here on TB) the cross-rails were only 2.75" tall and the panel recesses 16" tall.

Similarly, this instruction can't relate to the Brachacki Box because, with the best will in the world, by this stage, she was just too decrepit to be of any use to anyone (and, in any case, the proportions differ from the TYJ box):



So, which pre-existing Police Box prop do the plans refer to? I wonder if there was another box in existence - perhaps a 'master' for the TYJ but made of timber.

Given that the BBC retained virtually all its props 'in-house' until the mid 1980s (see http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=1036.msg16729#msg16729 ), it seems unlikely that this additional timber box would have been scrapped. Which leads me to another question - was it ever used in Dr Who i.e., was it ever televised?

This, in turn, leads me to my final point - I wonder when we think we are always looking at the fibreglass TYJ Box (mark 1), are we - in fact - actually looking at the fibreglass box or the wooden 'master' from which it was drawn?  

T

[andrewkent]

Hi Tony,

I'm pretty sure that there was a wooden former mold that the first and second TJY Boxes were cast from.  Hence why it was so easy to create the second box for Season 23.  My main reasoning for this is that I remember reading that the wooden masters were used to replace the doors on the Newberry box for Logopolis, in order to make it look more like the TYJs.  They must have made a new set of doors for S23 mold, as the Newberry was sold off at the Longleat 20th Anniversary event.

Sadly I forget the sources for this, so can't back it up.

Andrew

[tony farrell]

Hi Andrew - the Newbery box got the TYJ-style doors for Castrovalva rather than for Logopolis.

Original Newbery Box:



Logopolis:




Castrovalva:


(The original Newbery panels are just visible behind Peter Davison.)

Black Orchid:



Interestingly by the time of Black Orchid, we can also see that the 'replacement' TYJ-style doors have actually been fitted on the left-hand side rather than the front of the prop (note the absence of the sign-box which wasn't fitted to the rear of the Newbery Box):



(Again, the original Newbery panels are just visible behind Adric.)

In his article (see http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~trekker/policeboxes/tv2.html ) Anthony Sibley/Purpleblancmange asserts that the stacked roof section from the wooden TYJ 'master'/former was used to redress the Newbery Box for Logopolis. However, in this shot of the TYJ (mark 1) Box from The Leisure Hive, the second (wider) tier of the stacked roof appears to be much taller than the equivalent second tier seen in the shot from Logopolis:



So, I'm not entirely convinced he's got the history of the Newbery prop quite correct in this regard (he also states that the Newbery Box was fitted with a rear sign-box but - as far as I can remember - I haven't seen any evidence of this).

So, whilst it may be correct that the doors from the wooden 'master' TYJ box do indeed seem to have been fitted to the Newbery Box for Castrovalva, that still leaves an entire season (Tom Baker's final season) for the wooden 'master' TYJ Box to have been in existence.

So, my original question still stands: Are we sure that - from Leisure Hive to Logopolis - what we are seeing is always the fibreglass TYJ Box or the wooden 'master' from which the TYJ fibreglass moulds were drawn?

T

[fivefingeredstyre]

Now the question which occurs to me is this: Which pre-existing Police Box prop were the casts taken from?

I'm wondering if it was the intention to use the existing as a Master, but then they had a re-think when it came to building one?

Things have a habit of changing when it came to the construction phase...

[tony farrell]

Now the question which occurs to me is this: Which pre-existing Police Box prop were the casts taken from?

I'm wondering if it was the intention to use the existing as a Master, but then they had a re-think when it came to building one?
Things have a habit of changing when it came to the construction phase...

Ah, perhaps I haven't made things quite clear: I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the dimensions stated on the plans for the TYJ Box. (It wouldn't surprise me at all if the stated dimensions weren't the ones we ended up with.)

This wasn't what I intended to say. Rather, simply that there was an additional wooden Tardis prop made sometime after "Shada" but before "The Leisure Hive". This wooden box was of a new design (i.e., not the Brachacki or Newbery boxes) and it was from this newly-built wooden prop that the moulds for the TYJ Box were subsequently drawn (made).

From the 1980 plans, it can be seen that they have gone through the BBC's internal approval process (see the design manager received stamps):



Furthermore, they also contain instructions to the contractor to paint the new fibreglass cast to match the pre-existing wooden box (see bottom left of main plan):



The post-Shada newly built wooden box was obviously made (otherwise the plans couldn't refer to it, still less would they instruct the contractor to take delivery of it) and was in existence at least up until Castrovalva when its doors seem to have been fitted to the Newbery Box.

Given that the moulds for fibreglass TYJ Box (mark 1) were drawn from this wooden box, the two boxes must have been identical or, at least, near-identical. If they were near-identical, then there is no reason why both boxes couldn't have been televised (perhaps the fibreglass one was used for solely location work and the wooden TYJ-style Box was used solely in the studio). In JN-T's own words "if we're going to spend money, let's see it (on screen)".

Either way, televised or not, we have proof that an additional wooden box was made, that it was a painted and functioning prop and that it survived at least throughout season eighteen!

So, in terms of the Tardis chronology, the correct version should be:

1. The Brachacki Box
2. The Newbery Box
3. A new wooden box (made after Shada)
4. The fibreglass TYJ Box MARK 1 (drawn from wooden box 3)
5. Possibly another fibreglass TYJ-style box made for "Planet of Fire"
6. The fibreglass TYJ Box MARK 2

There you go - a newly discovered bit of Dr Who history for us to enjoy! 

T

[fivefingeredstyre]

Honestly, I'm not so sure we have proof on this myself...

In order for the moulds for the TYJ to have been built there would have to have been 'plugs' made, and those plugs are clearly different to the Newbery or Brachaki boxes; however, as Matts Critch replica has shown, they would have only needed to be sections of the final product rather than the whole box. You would only need a roof plug, a base, a corner post, a sign box and one half of a wall section to make up enough plugs to mould up a full box, rather than build a whole new box.

Also, if you've gone to the trouble of knocking up a whole new wooden prop, why would you redress the Newbery box in Logopolis (as well as mess around with your new fibre glass prop to make it a close approximation of the redressed Newbery?) surely you would use the wooden version, which was lying about in the storeroom some where and was identical to your fibreglass prop.

There is clearly some shinanagens afoot here with regards to the Newbery prop. When I saw the redressed version at Longlete the doors were clearly on the front side, as opposed to the left hand side in Black Orchid (from memory the rear had a cardboard fillit in place of the rear wall, and there was definitely no back sign box), that poor thing must have been knocked around till it was unrecognisable in the end...

Another question would be, if the plan was to use the "existing" box to mould up (as mentioned in the above schematics) why go to all the trouble of drawing up measurements for a new box on the same blueprint? It makes no sense, as you would be taking moulds from existing kit, you wouldn't need the dims on the left hand side of the drawing.

im guessing there was confusion somewhere down the line with the intent on the plans and the final construction but I doubt very much there was a whole TJY built in wooden form. As Andrew indicates below, half a side for moulding could have been built and this could have been used later for a door in Black Orchid, or if your feeling generous, a whole side could have been built which could have been split in two to make two doors, but not a whole box.

but personally I don't see this as proof there was a full box built.

The budgets were famously tight during Graham Williams final years, and production on the show halted prematurely with Shada's strike action. Williams moved on soon after, and Nathan-Turner stepped in, with the above plan being drawn up for the Leisure Hive. With that in mind you have to wonder when would the new wooden box have been built, under who's instruction, and why are there no plans for it in the archive?

And why go to the trouble of including the dims for it on your new set of drawings in 1980 (after the new one has been designed and built) when you got to the trouble of issuing instructions on the same set of drawings to take moulds from the existing version?

I'm guessing the designer was confused and the prop guys went their own way in the end...

It's all guesswork, mind  

[Rassilons Rod]

Not to second guess anyone here, but having visited the archive myself there are LOADS of plans missing.  For various reasons.

it's fairly well known for example that the plans for the Mike Kelt console do exist in private hands. But so much stuff is missing from the sixties.

[fivefingeredstyre]

There's definitely something a bit weird going on with the plans though, the Planet of Fire plans for the second TYJ has exactly the same set of instructions on it...



The whole set of plans appears to be a duplication, from the dimensions to the different set of planned sign boxes vs those actually constructed in 1981.

You wouldn't need to do that if you were pulling another box from the same set of moulds, so why go to the bother?

[galacticprobe]

Steve has a good point when he talks about "confusion somewhere down the line with the intent on the plans and the final construction". Stepping outside of the box (so to speak), what if the "existing timber TARDIS" mentioned on the plans was the Newbery, and the intent was to make moulds of that for the fiberglass TY-J? But when you look at the Newbery and compare its design to what's on the TY-J plans posted here, the builders were probably scratching their heads because the "existing timber TARDIS" looked nothing like what Yardley-Jones designed.

The possibility then exists that the builders took moulds from parts of the Newbery (base? roof?), but then knocked together one wall (done in two parts: one with a center divide and one without), pulled moulds from those for the sides and doors, and then did the same for the Top Sign boxes, the three steps, and the corner posts (the TY-J had quarter-round corners on the corner posts and steps above the doors; the Newbery didn't, and the Newbery's Top Sign boxes might not have been the right size to fit on the TY-J box).

They may have intended to mould the Newbery, but with Yardley-Jones' plans looking so much more like the original Brachacki, the builders took matters into their own hands (as Steve speculated; "I'm guessing the designer was confused and the prop guys went their own way in the end..."). The designer may not have been the one that was confused when he designed a TARDIS that looked more like the original, but rather the props builders were the ones who were confused when they saw the dramatic differences between the plans and the "timber" Newbery TARDIS, and as did just go their own way, knocking together enough parts to match the plans, and using what parts they could from the Newbery to make all of the necessary moulds. (The first TY-J could have been a "Franken-TARDIS".)

It is another possibility.

Dino.

[tony farrell]

In the words of Patrick Troughton, "Oh no, no, no, no, no no. I don't wish to seem contrary but" I really must disagree with you Dino (and to some extent with Steve also). Let me try to explain:

The reference in the 1980 plans to "the existing wooden Tardis" simply cannot refer to the Newbery Tardis exterior (Police Box prop), its design is simply too different from that proposed by Tom Yardley-Jones.

Alexander Graham Bell was awarded the patent for the telephone in 1876 - are we seriously suggesting that the contractors took delivery of the Newbery Police Box prop, looked at it and then looked at the TYJ plans, scratched their heads and simply 'did their own thing'? I find It is absolutely inconceivable that someone wouldn't have picked up the telephone and asked TYJ if they'd been sent the wrong Police Box prop by mistake!

The BBC may well be bureaucratic (and many would argue inefficient) but it is not so incompetent as to provide someone with explicit instructions to take moulds from a particular prop and then to send them the wrong one!

Again, I find that absolutely inconceivable! (If it did happen and I were in charge, I'd make damned sure that TYJ was never employed again (and TYJ went on to design a great many programmes for the BBC - refer to http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0946424/, if you want to check).)

As regards Dino's suggestion that the contractors took moulds from parts of the Newbery Police Box prop (roof and base) and then went on to construct the remainder of the TYJ box 'from scratch', again - with respect - I have to disagree: The slope of the Newbery Box's roof is completely different to that of the TYJ prop; the base too is a different design.

Now, if I may, I'd like to turn to Steve's observation that the plans for Planet of Fire are identical to the TYJ plans for Leisure Hive and that there is something weird going on. Why? The Leisure Hive was recorded in March 1980 and Planet of Fire was recorded in September 1983. I don't see why the wooden Police Box prop referred to in both sets of plans couldn't have been kept in storage for a couple of years (albeit minus the doors which - as we have seen - were transferred to Newbery Police Box prop for Castrovalva). After all, the BBC retained the Brachacki Police Box prop after it was retired - if Purpleblancmange is to be believed, the Brachacki prop was retained until 1993 (that's sixteen years after her last appearance in the programme)!

Steve's other point - why re-dress the Newbery prop with a stepped roof to match the TYJ Box if the BBC already had a wooden 'master' available - is a little more difficult to answer. However, it doesn't disprove the existence of a wooden master which was made to the TYJ plans, it could simply be a question of economy: Steve points to the tight budgets as a reason for utilising both the fibreglass and wooden TYJ-style boxes in preference to refitting the Newbery Box for use in Logopolis.

Well, yes and no... Giving the Newbery box a door handle. a cubby hole for the phone and a stepped roof for Logopolis would hardly 'break the bank'. And, if you intended the wooden TYJ Box as a 'master', i.e., potentially to be used for future moulds (as it seems was the case from both sets of plans i.e., Leisure Hive and Planet of Fire), you'd want to keep that wooden box safe for such potential future use.

As I've said, if this wooden box were to be used solely in the studio, there would be much less likelihood of damage than were it to be used on location. And, in any case, wouldn't it be easier to take future moulds from a wooden 'master' rather than attempting to take 'second generation' moulds from a fibreglass box?

I may have slightly overstated matters when I said that both the Leisure Hive and Planet of Fire plans 'prove' the existence of a wooden TYJ-style Police Box but, I repeat both sets of plans have gone through the BBC's internal approval process i.e., they've been authorised. These are what an historian would call 'primary sources'. They are contemporary documents - it would be a brave historian who would dismiss such primary evidence for the existence of a wooden TYJ-style Police Box prop.

T

[fivefingeredstyre]

I'd have to disagree with you on this one mate, I wouldn't call two sets of the same drawings as 'primary evidence' to the existence of a hitherto unknown and unmentioned full wooden TYJ. Whilst they are undoubtably contemporary they can still be inaccurate to the final account, as anything can happen between the design stage and actual construction (as the sign boxes on the eventual TJY show).

In the words of Patrick Troughton, "Oh no, no, no, no, no no. I don't wish to seem contrary but" I really must disagree with you Dino (and to some extent with Steve also). Let me try to explain:

The reference in the 1980 plans to "the existing wooden Tardis" simply cannot refer to the Newbery Tardis exterior (Police Box prop), its design is simply too different from that proposed by Tom Yardley-Jones.

i think that was the intention, but when they saw the state of the prop, and the fact that it didn't really resemble a real police box, they went with the measurements on the drawing.

As regards Dino's suggestion that the contractors took moulds from parts of the Newbery Police Box prop (roof and base) and then went on to construct the remainder of the TYJ box 'from scratch', again - with respect - I have to disagree: The slope of the Newbery Box's roof is completely different to that of the TYJ prop; the base too is a different design.

I agree with you on that point, though, I'm guessing the idea of using the existing box was dropped totally as it was no real use at that stage...

Now, if I may, I'd like to turn to Steve's observation that the plans for Planet of Fire are identical to the TYJ plans for Leisure Hive and that there is something weird going on. Why? The Leisure Hive was recorded in March 1980 and Planet of Fire was recorded in September 1983. I don't see why the wooden Police Box prop referred to in both sets of plans couldn't have been kept in storage for a couple of years (albeit minus the doors which - as we have seen - were transferred to Newbery Police Box prop for Castrovalva). After all, the BBC retained the Brachacki Police Box prop after it was retired - if Purpleblancmange is to be believed, the Brachacki prop was retained until 1993 (that's sixteen years after her last appearance in the programme)!

its more the question of why go to the trouble of knocking up a fresh set of plans when the identical plans already exist I can't get my head round... It just seems like a total waste of time (even more so when you consider that the moulds already exist for the box in question - you don't need any drawings at all...)

For the record though, I still think that rather than remove the doors and roof from a full box they just put the mould masters to good use on the Newbery...

Steve's other point - why re-dress the Newbery prop with a stepped roof to match the TYJ Box if the BBC already had a wooden 'master' available - is a little more difficult to answer. However, it doesn't disprove the existence of a wooden master which was made to the TYJ plans, it could simply be a question of economy: Steve points to the tight budgets as a reason for utilising both the fibreglass and wooden TYJ-style boxes in preference to refitting the Newbery Box for use in Logopolis.

Well, yes and no... Giving the Newbery box a door handle. a cubby hole for the phone and a stepped roof for Logopolis would hardly 'break the bank'. And, if you intended the wooden TYJ Box as a 'master', i.e., potentially to be used for future moulds (as it seems was the case from both sets of plans i.e., Leisure Hive and Planet of Fire), you'd want to keep that wooden box safe for such potential future use.

But why break the bank at all? You would already have a serviceable wooden box that would have been identical to the fibreglass one with no need to redress at all to either prop.

As regards to keeping a wooden TJY safe for future use to make future moulds from, why would you need to do that? You already have the moulds and they can be used over and over again.

Also, if the wooden box was to be kept safe, where is it and why would it not have cropped up before now?

[tony farrell]

As those of us - like me - that have a degree in History will know, a 'primary source' is a document (or, in this case, a plan) which was written at the time by the person or people involved.

For many years it was thought that pictures of Richard III showing he had a hunched back were Tudor propaganda. It wasn't until his corpse was found under a car park in Leicester that it was proved he did in fact have a hunched back.

Equally, just because people aren't aware of something, it does not follow that it does not or did not exist!

T

[Volpone]

I don't have a dog in this fight and it seems I'm wrong on this site at least as often as I'm right, but it just seems odd that there would be this TARDIS prop that no one has heard of.  It doesn't make sense that they'd go to the expense and effort of refitting the Newbery prop for "Logopolis" etc if they had a timber version of the TYJ laying around.  On the other hand, they had to make the original fiberglass molds off of *something*, so I can't rule out the argument. 

My other 2 cents is on the notes on the plans:  "Take possession of the existing timber TARDIS..."  This *could* be referring to the Newbery.  It doesn't specifically say to make the molds off of it, so they could just be using it as a reference point.  The same goes with the weathering comments--get the current shooting prop and weather next season's prop so it has a similar look. 

That said, this may be like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster or any of the missing serials:  Unless some new evidence comes forward, we'll likely never know. 

[fivefingeredstyre]

As those of us - like me - that have a degree in History will know, a 'primary source' is a document (or, in this case, a plan) which was written at the time by the person or people involved.

[Pedant mode]You did also call the document "Primary Evidence" which is not the same thing at all [/Pedant mode]

 

Being serious, like you I like the idea that the reference section of this site is as accurate a record of the history and dimensions of the of the props as possible, and I feel that if we suddenly start throwing in hand grenades around the existence of a hitherto unmentioned version of the prop we need to be completely sure on this. So far the only indication we have on this is a paragraph on a design drawing drawing coupled with established knowledge that the Newbery box has totally different dimensions to that of the finished TJY. No one who worked on the show has - to date - mentioned that a full wooden box existed.

In this case a 'primary source' smoking gun would be one of the people who actually worked on the construction phase of the project as they would be able to tell us about any deviations from the drawing, or not.
I just feel that what was written on the plan was the intent rather than the reality (I realise I keep referring back to the TJY's sign boxes, but the Planned vs Actual on that tells us that the intent can be very different to the real world)...

Did they ever put Richard III's car park back after they dug him up?

Equally, just because people aren't aware of something, it does not follow that it does not or did not exist!

Completely agree with you here. I think Aliens exist, but I don't think i've seen one

One thing I forgot to ask about was your mention of a possible additional TJY between the first and second versions. This is the first time i've seen this mentioned before, what makes you say that?

I don't have a dog in this fight and it seems I'm wrong on this site at least as often as I'm right, but it just seems odd that there would be this TARDIS prop that no one has heard of.  It doesn't make sense that they'd go to the expense and effort of refitting the Newbery prop for "Logopolis" etc if they had a timber version of the TYJ laying around.  On the other hand, they had to make the original fiberglass molds off of *something*, so I can't rule out the argument.  

My thoughts are that you don't actually need a full box to make moulds, just one version of the key sections. If you have that you can pump out box after box to your hearts content.

In this case I still think the plug's for the moulds were put to good use when the Newbery was refitted, as we have previously speculated, rather than needlessly cannibalising an entire box.

My other 2 cents is on the notes on the plans:  "Take possession of the existing timber TARDIS..."  This *could* be referring to the Newbery.  It doesn't specifically say to make the molds off of it, so they could just be using it as a reference point.  The same goes with the weathering comments--get the current shooting prop and weather next season's prop so it has a similar look.

Thats how I see it. I also think the same applies for the mark 2 version a few years later.