Tom Yardley-Jones prop History (By Tony Farrell) - DISCUSSION THREAD

Started by tony farrell, Sep 10, 2016, 04:28 pm

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tony farrell

Quote from: Angelus Lupus on Sep 12, 2016, 12:07 pm
As with any new info on 'established' Who lore it will take a while for this info to trickle out to the other sections (the History, the signs, the answers people give to "What's the difference between Mk1 & Mk2?") And I doubt it will be an easy process: just look how long the 'borrowed from Dixon of Dock Green' or 'cut down to fit the props lift' myths held out!


Oh goodness - I hope it won't take that long! Actually - if my Twitter 'account' is anything to go by, the knowledge of Tardis Builders is starting to spread (and certainly, I do my best to 'plug' TB). Some quite notable 'names' in the world(s) of Dr Who are starting to 'sit up and take notice' of our 'reference' section in particular. With a bit of luck, the 'word' will continue to spread and - hopefully - Tardis Builders will become the 'go to' site for well-researched information. That can only be a good thing!

Quote from: Angelus Lupus on Sep 12, 2016, 12:07 pm
But if, as Tony suggests, the reference section here is updated with the latest knowledge and research, hopefully this place can be the start of correcting the misconceptions. Hopefully the BBC's 30 year cycle of unlocking the archives can provide more invaluable nuggets of evidence like the cargo manifest.
And yes, it would be fascinating to get Purple's take on this (I used to enjoy reading his site before it went private) and I hope this new info is taken in the spirit of increased historical accuracy.


I too hope that Marc and the other moderators will at least consider re-jigging parts of the reference section. Though the main purpose of this site is as a 'hobby group', if we are going to have a reference section, let's try to make it as accurate and as readily accessible as possible.

As an aside, I think Purple does still occasionally visit this site though I think he now uses a different pseudonym. I hope he does and I genuinely hope he accepts my 'research' into the TY-J prop in the spirit in which it is intended. As a second 'aside', I just wish the BBC would recognise that not all internet sites/fan groups are 'bad' or 'amateurish' (in the pejorative sense of the word) and that people such as Mark Barton Hill (and Matt Sanders) would then be allowed to contribute more fully once more.

T

tony farrell

Quote from: domvar on Sep 12, 2016, 12:45 pm
One thing to keep in mind with these surface defects that are being mentioned is that the prop is made from grp, any of these details if present in the mould used would be on both, equally if the later boxes were cast from moulds taken from the original box you would have he same issue.


I agree completely Dom, a particular defect 'in itself' proves nothing (especially if the moulds were re-used) and therefore you have to look for other distinguishing factors such as the doors on the 1983 prop having three sets of hinges.

In addition, the different dimensions present in the Cardiff prop (depending on which side you're looking at) would suggest that there were two sets of moulds and that the Cardiff prop at some point has become a hybrid i.e., the different modular parts have become 'mixed up'.

T

Angelus Lupus

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Sep 12, 2016, 01:08 pm
Oh goodness - I hope it won't take that long! Actually - if my Twitter 'account' is anything to go by, the knowledge of Tardis Builders is starting to spread (and certainly, I do my best to 'plug' TB). Some quite notable 'names' in the world(s) of Dr Who are starting to 'sit up and take notice' of our 'reference' section in particular. With a bit of luck, the 'word' will continue to spread and - hopefully - Tardis Builders will become the 'go to' site for well-researched information. That can only be a good thing!
T

Well, if the 'word' gets to these 'names' and they can pass it onto, say, the people in charge of the info-plaques at Cardiff...
A mixed-up non-conformist, trying to fit in.

galacticprobe

Okay... wow... I think this is the first time ever that I've had a topic split off into another while I was reading it! One minute I was reading what Tony said about Purple not being here to give his comments, then I had to refresh the page (because I had to put down a warning sign - paper towel - so notify the wife of the cat puke (on a dark rug... easy to step in, but I heard, and saw, it happen), and then my screen saver was acting up. So... 'Command R' to refresh everything and WHAM! Where did everything I was reading go? Return to the Main Page, and look! A new topic, with everything I was reading before in there! (Never happened to me before. Confused the heck out of me.)

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

tony farrell


Marc has gone to the trouble of separating this discussion thread at my request and at your suggestion - it must have been a pure fluke that he 'pressed whatever button' he had to when you were reading it!   ;)

Quote from: Angelus Lupus on Sep 12, 2016, 04:53 pm
Well, if the 'word' gets to these 'names' and they can pass it onto, say, the people in charge of the info-plaques at Cardiff...


I've asked about the Yardley-Jones Tardis 'info plaque' in Cardiff and - apparently - this was a deliberate decision to keep the explanation simple (i.e., two props - one for location use and one for studio use). Not exactly a particularly detailed or accurate explanation but then, the Dr Who Experience isn't aimed a 'geeks' like me who'd know when the phone panel lost its handle and gained a thicker frame with different wording!  I think that - as far as the general paying public are concerned - this would be considered too much information. ;)

T

galacticprobe

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Sep 12, 2016, 06:13 pm
Marc has gone to the trouble of separating this discussion thread at my request and at your suggestion - it must have been a pure fluke that he 'pressed whatever button' he had to when you were reading it!   ;)


Well, yeah; I kind of figured that. :D It was just odd when it happened while I was reading it because that was a first for me.

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

tony farrell

In this topic http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=6251.msg88394;topicseen#msg88394 Ian/Ionsith queried the depth of the TY-J doors' recess as stated in my article. He sent me the following screen-grabs from my 'article' to illustrate the apparent discrepancy of the depth of the door recess in "Battlefield" and in "Silver Nemesis":

Non-recessed doors -
PDVD_041 (1).JPG

And recessed doors -
PDVD_060 (1).JPG

Now, in my article, I've pointed out the modular nature of the prop and the fact that as soon as two (near identical) props exist side by side, their parts could have become swapped over. I also mention the fact that in "Silver Nemesis", the door with the arrow in it was made from wood and that its panels appeared to be narrower than the left-hand door. I further pointed out that the 'rear' doors seen in "Survival" and in "Ghostlight" lacked their central dividing strip.

Now, from earlier posts, Mark Barton Hill has suggested that the door with the working phone panel seen in "Delta and the Bannermen" was also made out of wood.

So, as well as the fibreglass doors, we at least one wooden door as well (note the depth of shadow above the nearest door in this publicity shot):

aldres04.jpg

delta3.JPGsilver2.JPG

The question (or rather potential explanation) is this: What if the door - without the lock - as seen in "Silver Nemesis" was actually the wooden door with the opening phone panel created for "Delta and the Bannermen" and seen without its phone panel in "Remembrance of the Daleks" but now simply mounted on the right-hand side of the doorway rather than the left-hand side? It would be a simple matter to temporarily screw the hinged phone panel to the other door at the same time. So, if the door with the arrow in it is the phone panel door - the reason for the differently coloured panel in this door is that it was a temporary panel fitted solely for an arrow to be fired at it i.e., a shock-absorbent material that the fired arrow could embed into - something like a sheet of cork or even thick polystyrene.

This swapping of doors would then explain the subsequent appearance of the doors without the central dividing strip in both "Survival" and "Ghostlight" i.e., the wooden dividing strip had simply been removed from the wooden door when the door was temporarily hung on the opposite side of the prop's doorway. (Note too, in the "Ghostlight" publicity picture below, that the shadow the bottom of the three steps is casting on these (wooden) doors - it is much deeper. This indicates that these doors were slightly recessed when compared to the fibreglass ones.)

19054.jpg

This might in turn help to explain the origin of the wooden doors themselves - were they perhaps re-used from the Newbery prop in the Davison publicity photos from Castrovalva (note the difference in panel sizes between the Newbery prop's side and those on the doors)  i.e., not the original Newbery doors. So, were what people had previously assumed to be the TY-J fibreglass doors that were hung on the Newbery prop for Castrovalva actually a pair of wooden doors instead?

Now there's a thought!

cas6.jpg

T

(Edited for spelling mistakes. Twice - DOH! Or should that be "Double DOH?!!"  :) )

ionsith

Thanks for clearing that up, Tony. It can be a hard one to gauge from images, especially when you have deep shadows or odd lighting angles. I do find it odd that the TY-J is the only prop to date to have its doors and sides that far out. Was it an aesthetic idea or did they think that having the doors nearer the posts' edge would lend more stability? I suppose we'll never know.

tony farrell

I'd suggest (only suggest, mind you) that the fibreglass doors were flush due to the moulding process i.e., it would be easier to make a mould that was all the same thickness and could therefore be used to form all four sides of the prop. Whereas if you made a new set of wooden doors for the Newbery prop which were designed simply to imitate the TY-J doors, their thickness wouldn't need to be a match for the TY-J prop but rather a match for the Newbery version instead. :)

T

darren79

Although I haven't seen it in a long time, I remember how the making of Silver Nemesis showed that during the countryside scene with the TARDIS near the crypt, there was a second door lying on the ground even though the prop was fully assembled.

Go to 2:25 on this video and you see the door on the ground (then at 3 mins in and near the start of the video you see the fully formed prop) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zagx9_rqOI

John Asbridge the designer on Silver Nemesis was also the designer on Delta and the Bannermen.

Don't know if this is helpful.:)

tony farrell

Oh.... I'd never seen that programme Darren - thank you!

For info, here are the screenshots:

Proper (fibreglass) door on the ground -

Screenshot 2016-09-17 11.42.25.jpg

Dummy (wooden) door with arrow embedded in it fitted to the prop -

Screenshot 2016-09-17 11.44.10.jpg

Thanks again Darren. If I may I'll edit my article to include these and the part about the two stories sharing the same director.  :)

T

ionsith

I see what you mean about the shadow under the door being deeper. Also the door divider looks like it is sitting behind the bottom step rather than being flush with it... Trick of the light?

tony farrell

In addition to my comment about the wooden door(s) possibly being originally made for the Newbery prop as seen in Castrovalva (and therefore not being an exact match to the fibreglass doors (depthwise), it is also possible that a slight asymmetry had 'crept into' the older TY-J prop by the time we get to the McCoy era.

Don't forget what a shabby state this prop was in when it was used for the Colin Baker photo-call and the strengthening work carried out either for "Trial of a Time Lord" or "Delta and the Bannermen" (i.e., the brackets added to hold the sides to the roof). Don't forget too that the doors with the three hinges also appear to have been fitted to the older prop from "Trial of a Time Lord" onwards.

With all that work carried out, it is entirely possible that the hinge positions on one side of the prop had to be re-drilled and that perhaps this is what causes the different depths of the door recess i.e., in some scenes, we are seeing the 'front' whilst  in others, we are seeing the 'back' of the prop. In which case, the wooden doors could still have the same thickness as the fibreglass ones but they had just been 'hung' further back due to a weakness in one set of corner-posts.

This is the trouble with modular props - once you start taking them apart and putting them back together again, they very rapidly begin to deteriorate!

T

(Edited to correct a grammatical error - I don't know what's the matter with me today; I really should proof-read what I've written.  :) )

ionsith

That is a really good point - Did the doors remained attached to the corner posts when disassembled? How often could one feasibly hinge and unhinge doors from a fibre glass post before the whole thing started to fall apart? I'm thinking not very long!

tony farrell

Exactly!

Look at the 'rear' doors in "Logopolis" and the strengthening work carried out to the 'rear' corner-posts at the start-of-season 19 (as characterised by the presence of the four bolts throughout that season).

T