I've created a table for all of the St. John Ambulance logos (including those used on the Cushing movie prop and Met Boxes). You can find the table here: http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=6014.0.

It can also be accessed (like the Top Signs and Phone Panels) from here: http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?board=24.0.

And a big Thank you! goes out to deck5 for hosting the files!

I hope everyone can make good use of them.

Dino.

Great stuff Dino!

Small correction, though - the dates are a bit off for the one listed as a real Met sign - pic showing it as the one that was on one of the salvaged Mark 5's (formerly called Mark 3's). The two-hole variety of sign dates from circa early 1950s on. Those in use before that (pre-war stock?) were four hole types with quite different graphics and a different manufacturing process. I would call the one already posted "Variant 2" as well, since it's definitely of later vintage.

Also note that the linked jpg's and pdf's for this and the Cushing sign are not really accurate to the originals, though are quite nifty in their own right. Perhaps a note that they are interpretations or idealised?

Finally, there was also a third Met variant that was used for a brief time on the Earl's Court Box (though not yet sure if it was the Brigade version or the Association version of that type as the original photos and videos or Earl's Court are really, really low-res).

Thanks for the info, hb! I've corrected the dates for the Met Box badge (is there an "end date" for it?), and added most of the notes you suggested. Hopefully you and the other Met Box researchers can find out more on the pre-WWII badge (the 4-hole mount). It would be great to add that one to the Table.

I've kept the name of "Variant 1" as it is for now, mainly because this is the earliest version I've got to post on the Met Box badge, and to avoid confusion when people look at it, see "Variant 2" (and Variant 3 below it) and wonder 'what's happened to 'variant 1'?'. (Also I would have to rename the files, send them to deck5, and then he would have to delete the current ones and upload the new ones; but when it comes to creating that 4-hole "Variant 1" I'll think of some way to deal with that.)

So do keep that info coming in! (Especially if someone can find a decent image of the pre-War (Earl's Court?) variant!)

Dino.

I would just put an end date for that 2-hole Met plaque as 1980, when the last Box was pulled (even though Barnet/S63 didn't have one).



As to the Cushing pic - the one you used is from a set of captures I took directly off of the old DVDs of both movies, posted to the old forum some time ago. The digitally restored Blu-Ray editions that recently came out might have better resolution, but they were hardly closeups to begin with. Unfortunately, the new Blu-Ray discs are not only rather pricey, but also Region B only at this point.

The only other pic I've found of it is from this Lobby Card --



A blowup --





As to the Pre-War to early Post-War 4-hole plaques - the best pics we have of them in situ on original boxes are these:

From the early 1931 publicity photo of one of the very first all-concrete Mark 2's at Ashcombe Avenue, Surbiton (V47), enlarged to 400% of original --



Enhanced (sharpened) --



From the late 1936 photo of the Radiolympia Exhibition display Box (a refurbished Mark 1) --



This one from the circa 1948 full frame view of the Chiswick High Road Box (F4, a late model Mark 3 Barnet type box) --



And finally (the best for last), this from the closeup shot of Chiswick High Road (F4) taken at around the same time period, enlarged to 400% of original  (thanks to Dalekoracle for the hi-res scan he made at the Met Archives) --



Enhanced (levels normalized, then sharpened) --



As you can see, they are all very, very close to each other, and quite distinct from the later 2-hole plaques on that Mark 5 door and the Cushing Box.



As to Earl's Court - no, that wasn't a four hole pre-war type at all, but something completely different. Not sure when they were produced, but I suspect from the graphics that it was more or less contemporary with the larger variety used on the original Met Boxes and was just taken from old stock.

As I said previously, the best in situ shots of the original sign are pretty awful.

There's this one from c1999 --



And this from a home video shot in 1998 --



As you can see, not quite enough to decide which version of the outer logo this type of sign had - "ST. JOHN AMBULANCE BRIGADE" vs. "ST. JOHN AMBULANCE ASSOCIATION".

Here are better shots of the two versions from other sources, however --





So, does anyone out there who actually saw it remember whether the sign on the Earl's Court Box ended with "BRIGADE" or with "ASSOCIATION"?

Wow, hb! Those are some great images of the 4-hole Pre-WWII badges, not to mention the two versions of the Earl's Court badge. It might take me a short bit, but I'll get those into the Table as soon as I can draw out the replicas (and then send the files to deck5 so he can host them, which I'm sure he would).

The 4-hole shouldn't be too difficult to replicate. The Earl's Court badges... I'll work on both the "Brigade" and the "Association" versions so people will have a choice, though if we find out which one was the actual badge I'll mention that in the Table. (And I'll put that "end date" for the Met Box badge at 1980.)

Dino.

Might be able to get you even better images of some 4-hole and Earl's Court type signs to work with. Give me a couple.

Sounds great, hb; and no rush. I'm going to be busy until Monday - actually it's me, the wife, and The Evil One - dealing with Evil's graduation and getting her moved back home. So take your time; neither the Table nor I are going anywhere.

Dino.

I recently had the opportunity to see a fan-built Tardis with a perfectly clear printed Capaldi-ish (the outer white border is wider)  SJA logo on it, and when I looked at the the more blurry of my photos of it, I saw exactly the sort of glow seen on the series 6-7b reference image that is giving everyone such trouble to recreate. I'll include my photos - the full image has been resized, but the inset of he badge is cropped from the original full-size and untouched.

Having seen an in-situ SJA badge and then my photos of it, I can vouch for the tricks the camera plays. The sticker was crisp and sharp detail, but the lighting and such could make you believe otherwise. It's possible a clearer image of the series 6 logo would show it had more detail... or it may well be as fuzzy as it seems due to hand painting or stencilling it on.

(sadly the builder of this Tardis wasn't at the event so I couldn't discuss the choice of style mixes)

Interesting. That logo sticker looks like a "generic" St. John logo as the lettering on it doesn't line up with the "arrowheads" like it does on the Series 7b-8 logo, the cross at the bottom isn't as fat as it needs to be for a Series 6-7a logo (the lettering isn't as thick for that logo either), and there was no inner thin black circle on the Series 5 or 6-7a logos. So it could be one of those generic stickers that are for sale from several places on the internet.

And with this being a fan-built hybrid box, that logo is just fine for it. (The box has a Series 5+ lamp on top, blue window frames, a blue Phone Panel with white lettering and no frame around it, Brachacki/Newbery/Hudolin-style Top Signs with New Series-style lettering, Brachacki corner posts and three steps under the Top Signs, Classic Series size to the box and its relation to the base, not sure of the style of roof because of the angle, the door handles and lock in odd locations...)

This is certainly a fan-built hybrid of I'm guessing what the builder liked best of all the different TARDIS models. And with what looks very much like a generic St. John logo sticker I wouldn't use this as a reference for any of the actual props seen on screen (even though it's a really nice build, and her owner should be proud of the accomplishment).

Dino.

I know, the more I looked at the logo, the more I realised it wasn't exact to a particular version, but I still thought it was interesting to see how different a photo looked from what was really there, as an example of how easy it is to produce a potentially unhelpful reference image. Mind you, had this been a BBC prop you can be sure there would have been plenty of close-ups.

Okay: quick update time. I've started replicating the pre-WWII 4-hole-mount version of the Met Box badge, and I think this one is going to take a little longer than I'd realized. I can't find a good matching font for the wording, which almost looks like it was hand-painted onto the plate like the Matt Smith logos' lettering was; so it looks like I'm going to be drawing out each letter - probably pixel by pixel like I did with those Matt Smith logos.

I'm also working on the naming convention for the different Met Box versions. I'm thinking, since this is the "first" version of the logo used on a Met Box (that we know of) I'll keep the 2-hole version as "Variant 1", and the version with the odd 'exploded' cross around the dot at the bottom as "Variant 2" (since those names are already established in the Table and the linked repros' files), and call the 4-hole-mount version "Met Box Original". (How does that sound to our Met Box researchers?)

Dino.

You will definitely have a hard time finding the right font. Even if you could, you would have to have an app that was capable of distorting the letters for the "keystone" effect where the lower parts of the letters are narrower than the tops to conform to the differing relative circles they conform to.

The hand painted effect is largely due to the method of manufacture of these earlier plaques. They were porcelain signs, unlike the later, two hole variety, which were of screen printed, baked enamel paint.

The earlier, porcelain sign process involves depositing successive layers of fusible porcelain/glass powder on steel sign blanks by means of statically charged plates, with the whole sign then being fired at high temperature to create the final porcelain coating. It results in an incredibly tough and durable sign, but was a relatively expensive process.

A side effect of this process is much more variability in the final product than later printing methods could achieve. Not only where all the electric plates hand made and subject to mechanical deformation and electrical malfunctions, but the act of depositing the materials and the firing process themselves added to the variability. They also have a depth and luster that is hard to describe - quite beautiful, actually.

So yes, they are a challenge to recreate.

Well then, I guess (as I figured I would have to in the end) I'll be drawing out the lettering for the 4-hole badge just like I did for all the Series 5 on logos.

I know what some of you might be thinking: just use those letters and adjust their points to fit the other letters. But I've tried that before. Trust me; it's much easier to draw a new letter than it is to try and alter one already drawn for another logo. I can probably make alterations to "straight line" letters (like the M, N, E, T, etc.), but when it comes to the curved letters, drawing a new one is much faster.

And just to add another little update, hb88banzai has e-mailed me some nice high-res images of some 4-hole badges that will help greatly with creating those letters! So a huge "Thank you!" goes out to him for that!

Dino.

Quote from: galacticprobe on May 14, 2015, 04:58 am
I know what some of you might be thinking: just use those letters and adjust their points to fit the other letters. But I've tried that before. Trust me; it's much easier to draw a new letter than it is to try and alter one already drawn for another logo. I can probably make alterations to "straight line" letters (like the M, N, E, T, etc.), but when it comes to the curved letters, drawing a new one is much faster.
Dino.

It seems that between us, me and HB are keeping you busy Dino! 

Quote from: Tony Farrell on May 14, 2015, 10:50 am
It seems that between us, me and HB are keeping you busy Dino!  

How true that is, Tony! (Not just you, though... don't want to focus blame here. We've also got kiwidoc and superrichi1a who have given me a workout with those Demat Lever graphics! )

But hey, that's what I'm here for - to help out anyone in any way I can, and though it takes a while it is fun and helps give me a mental workout - which I don't mind since I'm stuck at home all day everyday. (Actually, there are others here just as busy as me; let's not forget The Doctor Who2. He's been working hard on those amazing whirligig symbols he was turning out. I know we haven't heard from him in a while, but the last time we did he was quite busy with other things - I think it was called "life" - as well as trying to get those last few symbols knocked out. Hopefully we'll hear from him again soon; he was refining 'symbol 16', and after that there are only two left.)

Dino.