St. John Ambulance sign

[hb88banzai]

The original of the pic found by mr mcgoo is too big to post as is, so here's a blowup of the relevant portion --



Original photo dates from July 2013.

[galacticprobe]

HB, I think you're right about that "artefact" thing. I hadn't thought of that. (But I'm glad of it; a black center would be much easier to make!) And I see that mr mcgoo has created what looks like a great version of the Series 7b logo. So maybe I'll just let that one stand, and not try to reinvent his wheel, so to speak. Might need a little tweaking on the A, M, and B (their lines look a bit thicker on all of the other images of the prop, even on the door to the set - I might play with that to see what I can come up with, and mainly just to keep my mind occupied), but other than that I think it's a fracking good Series 7b logo! (And the original logo image looks very close to the one on the TARDIS now that Capaldi's taken over the role.)

Dino.

[hb88banzai]

Nice mr mcgoo.

I did notice a bit of residual line anti-aliasing around the edges of the original inner line. Shows as grey hairlines inside the black region.

Did a quick touchup to eliminate these hairlines to get this --

[mr mcgoo]

I didn't notice the grey lines when I first uploaded that. Thanks for the correction, it looks great now.
One thing I have noticed though with all the New Series St John badges is the animals in the centre have a lot less detail than any image file I have seen for the logo. Whether or not this is just how it is painted on the prop, someone who knows more than me may have the answer.

[hb88banzai]

If you look at the pictures posted by galacticprobe in http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=5156.msg60964#msg60964 you can see that they seem to be pretty detailed. It's just that all the shots are of such low resolution once you blow them up to see that portion of the door that they kind of blur together.

Here are those pictures from galacticprobe --





Note that the lettering is also noticeably bolder than on the reconstruction of the 7b seal or its source image. From what I can see past the blurrier images for 7b, they were all bolder there as well. The appearance of some letters being heavier than others in the 7b shots (as commented on by galacticprobe) I think are likely just a result of the poor resolution, so the bolder lettering overall was probably the same in that previous version.

[Mark]

Woudln't it be cool if the BBC TARDIS builders used a graphic found from these very pages for their St John Badge?

I remember there beings some high resolution vectors being posted years back under either the Dalek Movie Box or real police boxes.

[galacticprobe]

Looking back at the images on the Capaldi version I posted a while back (thanks hb for finding those), I compared it to what is an actual St. John logo that several people posted earlier in this thread, and there is a big difference in their appearance:

The logo as it is on the TARDIS for Series 8 (even with that small edge lifting away at about 8 o'clock)

And an actual logo:

Scarfwearer even posted an actual badge earlier in this thread which looked exactly like this and came from a Police Box.

The Capaldi version of the logo has different style of lettering, different spacing of lettering, and the cross at the bottom is thicker in the center. Now, looking again at the logo from "Bells of St. John":

It almost looks like what they did was reuse the same design for Capaldi (dirtied-up bits cleaned, of course), but added that white inner circle to create that thin black inner circle (and then had it made into a sticker to that poor slob at the BBC Props Department didn't have to keep repainting the logo on by hand again, and again ad nauseum).

So, I guess I'll keep at the Series 7b logo and see what I can do with the lettering. And then once that's done to (almost ) everyone's satisfaction and the final version is posted, I'll alter it slightly to make it into the Series 8 Capaldi version and post that one as well. And the same goes for these as for the Hartnell and earlier Smith logos; if anyone wants the real high-res versions once I'm done, shoot me a PM. But just for the record, I don't just hand my logos over for free. The price: a nice high-res photo of your finished TARDIS! (Also for the record, I'm lousy at keeping track of this. A few people owe me photos, and I can't remember who they are! And yes, there is a pun in there.)

And a thought that's just hit me. With the way this logo keeps changing, like those building their TARDISes with reversible windows so they can have either blue or white frames (and I think some people are also building theirs with interchangeable Phone Panels) so depending in their mood (or their TARDISes') they can exhibit just about any TARDIS from Hartnell to (now) Peter Capaldi, maybe it could be possible to build a TARDIS so the "St. John Logo Panel" is also interchangeable: Hartnell, no logo (to cover Hartnell's last few stories through to the Tennant era), Smith Series 5-7a, Smith Series 7b, and now Capaldi. It would mean making a small handful of panels, but just think of how versatile your TARDIS will be. Sexy Thing can belong to any of the Doctor's incarnations!

I love it when the possibilities start becoming endless.

Dino.

[hb88banzai]

And an actual logo:

Scarfwearer even posted an actual badge earlier in this thread which looked exactly like this and came from a Police Box.

To expand and clarify a bit - Scarfwearer's post was of a couple of photos originally posted in other threads by ironageman, and though they are of genuine St. John plaques they were on other structures when photographed by him, not on Police Boxes - nor was either exactly like the more current logo used as the basis for the Smith and Capaldi signs.

Here are the referenced signs for easy comparison to the above:

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Original post is here http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=1123.msg9507#msg9507.

The logo used as a basis for the current NST's St. John sign is of a newer design originally dating from the late 60's, and for whatever reason even Earl's Court didn't use this version, so none of these three plaques/designs have been seen on any actual Metropolitan Police Box. Ironically, the newest St. John logo is more like the Hartnell sign, without animals or circular wording.

[galacticprobe]

HB, something is a little off in your link; it took me to the beginning of this thread rather than "page 5, reply #71". But I do see what you mean. I remember the discussion of the "Brigade" logo, and I think that was the wording used mostly on boxes in Scotland (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that). The simpler form came in because it looked - at first glance - just like the one they were using on the first Matt Smith box.

So for the sake of this thread, to consolidate things so people don't have to go flipping back and forth between pages and to catch everyone up, when dealing strictly with TARDISes, we've got the following variations:


The original "blank" (except for arrowheads) logo on the William Hartnell box from the pilot through to the end of "The War Machines" (dirtied up to various degrees over the run of its life - or should that be for the 'run for its life'?);


The logo from the two Peter Cushing films...

...and a clearer version of it (from an unknown object, but quite a few people use this one on their Cushing and Met Box builds as Cushing's was the closest TARDIS variation we've seen to an actual Met Box);


The logo from the Series 5 Matt Smith box;


The logo from the Series 6-7a Matt Smith box (I forgot where I got this one from);


The logo from the Series 7b Matt Smith box (grab from "Bells of St. John");


And finally the version seen so far on various released publicity photos (taken during the filming) of the Series 8 Peter Capaldi box. Note the main difference between this one and the Series 7b logo above is the addition of that white, inner ring which creates that thin inner black ring. Other than that, the lettering - hand-painted font look, spacing, and placement around the center, the cross at the bottom, is all the same.

Just for the record and anyone reading this thread, I'm not trying to debate or argue which logos were "real" or used on actual police boxes. I'm just trying to point out which versions of the logo were used on which TARDIS versions. If I'd given the impression I was asserting in factum that a particular logo was used on an actual police box, then it was due to error in my information, my interpretation of information, or the way I tried to get my ideas across, and my apologies go out to anyone that might have thought my comments were the 'hard and fast' rule.

So for replica building purposes, I'm concentrating on replicating - to the best of my ability - the Hartnell, Smith, and Capaldi versions as the Cushing/(possible) Met Box logo is readily available via a Google search for "St. John Ambulance logo (or badge)", or even right here since the footwork (or fingerwork) to find that one is already done.

I'm getting close to finishing the first draft of the Series 7b logo and once done with it I'll post it for people to comment on, and I'll make adjustments accordingly. Once I've got that one locked down, I'll create the Capaldi version next as all it needs (at this point) is that inner white circle. Then for those looking for a specific period of the Matt Smith TARDIS, I'll revisit the early Matt Smith logo and alter it to create the Series 6-7a version. (And then pray to the Great Goddess of the Universe that whoever it is at the BBC Design Department stops changing that fracking logo! )

Dino.

[hb88banzai]

Very odd about the link - as listed it should go directly to the relevant posting, but in looking around it now seems that many links to posts before a certain date on this and other Topics are going to the beginning of the relevant Topic instead of the indicated post, while later dated post links work correctly. I'll have to bring this to Scarfwearer's attention.

galacticprobe - Very nice rundown of the current reference images for all the TARDIS variants that have St. John signs.  

As an FYI - this one...



...is from an actual Mark 5 Met Box (previously called Mark 3's in most circles) which was being renovated when the photo was taken and is almost certainly original to the Box, so it looks like the Cushing TARDIS is the only one (to date) to use an actual St. John plaque on the prop.

Also, as far as I know the Police Boxes in Scotland generally had St. Andrew's Ambulance Association badges/logos on them rather than St. John Ambulance as they were/are much more active in the north.

Here's an example on a Glasgow Box --

[galacticprobe]

Ah-ha, so that's where the image of the St. John plate on the "grey" surface came from: a Met Box under renovation!

And you were right about the Scotland Branch being the St. Andrew Ambulance. I had the country wrong.

I've been poking around to see if I could find more on the "Brigade" version, for reference and to straighten out the info in my head, and I came across this thread: http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=3715.0. I also came across one of my posts from a few years ago (http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=2549.15#msgx26417) that mentioned the word "Brigade" was used in Ireland. Since no one came forth to correct me on that during the rest of the thread, I'd believed my info on that was correct.

But, that was quite a while ago. So, not satisfied with that and wanting to know where I'd found that info, I poked around on the net came across these which show the Ireland St. John Ambulance logos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_Ambulance_Brigade_of_Ireland, and their tiny logo here http://www.linkedin.com/groups/St-John-Ambulance-Brigade-Ireland-3914095/about. These logos oddly have no animals between the arrowheads. However, there are some vintage uniform buttons for the "Brigade" on eBay, and those do have the animals. And then there is this pennant http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3021/object/34923/Flag_%5BSt_John_Ambulance_Brigade%5D in a New Zealand museum, and that logo also has animals with the word Brigade (though the info on the pennant doesn't say which country it's from).

At least that mystery is solved: "mostly" Ireland.

Back to TARDIS St. John logos...

Dino.


EDIT: Fixed the linking issue, removed the now moot instructions if links didn't work, and added the below images in case the external links ever expire - banzai

St. John Brigade of Ireland seal --



St. John Brigade of New Zealand seal on a pennant --

[hb88banzai]

Sorry I didn't clear this up before, but it now seems advisable to delve a bit into history.

Apologies for any errors as to dates or small details, but here's the gist:

The St. John Ambulance Brigade is currently merely the practical branch of The St. John Ambulance Association (after the two were merged in 1968), which in turn is merely an arm of "The Grand Priory of the Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem in England".

The Order itself was revived as an Order of Chivalry in England in 1831, and was first granted a Royal Charter by Queen Victoria in 1888 (which is when the lions and unicorns were added to the Maltese Cross in its seal).

In order to further their goals of helping the sick and injured they formed The St. John Ambulance Association in 1877 as part of the general "Ambulance" movement that occurred world wide in the latter half of the 19th century in answer to the increased lethality and suffering (for both soldiers and civilians) resulting from modern warfare. This movement also saw the formation of the International Red Cross (1863) and the St. Andrew's Ambulance Association (1882).

The St. John Ambulance Association was mostly involved in training and education (of both various types of professionals and the general public) along with providing First Aid supplies, but by 1887 it was felt by the Order that a more direct approach was required so The St. John Ambulance Brigade was formed as a separate Foundation of the Order. They were/are a uniformed branch, essentially, which through trained nurses and ambulance personnel & vehicles provide first aid, transportation and other medical services to the general public. Up until the mid-20th century and the rise of National Health they were often the only secular health professionals the general public could call on in a crisis, and many hospitals were largely staffed by their nurses.

As both branches of St. John Ambulance have spread throughout the United Kingdom and Commonwealth (as well as the US) both Association and Brigade seals and badges can often be found practically interchangeably in each country's branch of the organization (both official and unofficial, as Ireland is forced to be constitutionally - each country often handling things like seals a bit differently, as they are wont to do). It's just that the Association plaques were the only ones that appeared on Met Boxes (save Earl's Court, which had a Brigade badge) as they were the organization that provided the First Aid kits and splints stored in them (as well as the first aid training for the PC's and Officers of the Met).

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

[galacticprobe]

Sorry I didn't clear this up before, but it now seems advisable to delve a bit into history.

Apologies for any errors as to dates or small details...

Excellent history on this, HB! (And going back close to 130 years, I think any errors in dates would be trivial, probably only being a year or so different, and wouldn't matter unless one was taking a history test on this specific subject. Well researched.)

And as you say...

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

Dino.

[galacticprobe]

Okay... time to blow the dust off of this one again. Here we go with the first round of the latest St. John Ambulance logos. My wife worked all day and The Evil One was visiting a friend, so I had the house all to myself and set about finishing the Series 7b logo, and then putting the white circle on it for the Series 8 Capaldi box version. And while I was at it, since I got those two finished faster than expected, I went about getting that accursed Series 6-7a Matt Smith box logo done so I could hopefully post them in proper chronological (rather than timey-wimey) order.

I know these will look huge here (and probably larger in a new tab or window), but they are all 300dpi and intended to give the best resolution when shrunk down to their appropriate, approximate 5-inch diameter. And with that, here goes...

Matt Smith's Series 6-7a box version:

This one - as you can probably tell from the photo of the actual logo above - was a fracking nightmare! (I swear the guy painting it on was hungover when he did it.) No font I could find would match up with that on the logo - not even a close approximation like with some of the others - so I ended up making each letter one at a time by tracing over the photo. (Mind you, this did help with letter placement; I'll give it that.) Once I got a letter done I just slid it over and into place inside the circle.

Which brings me to the next point: that light grey outermost circle. Unlike the Series 5 logo, the Series 6-7a logo has no thick black circle surrounding its outside edge. Therefore, so people have a reference for that outer edge when printing a white circle on white paper, I put that light grey circle in so they would know where to cut.

That cross at the bottom is about as thick as my sister-in-law's waistline! (I'm not saying she fat or anything, but her dress size is "Junior Missile", and when she wears trousers, it does take an Olympic relay team to run her belt through its loops.)

The logo's center part was the worst. The animals were larger than they were on the Series 5 logo, and they have much less definition to them. I was going blind trying to trace them out, so to save my eyeballs (and sanity, or what's left of it) I found it easier to trim away the outer part of the logo in the photo and insert the black circle with the larger, not-as-nice animals into my graphic. At the size you're seeing it right now, I'm not all that happy with it, but when reduced to 5 inches in diameter, it's not "too" bad. (Why they felt the need to change the Series 5 logo out is beyond me, but I wish they hadn't.)

Now, on to Series 7b box version (same box, I think, just different logo; correct me if I'm wrong there):

Here's the logo as it appeared in "The Bells of St. John", which is also pictured further above. This one sees the return of the thick black border around the outermost edge, a better-looking cross at the bottom, and the smaller, more detailed animals. This version also has a larger, inner black circle, and to compensate, a thinner white circle where the lettering is.

The lettering is smaller than in the two previous versions and is the same size (height-wise) as the cross at the bottom. Again the font was difficult to match on this version, partly because it was hand-painted on again, and also because as in the photo, it's rather grunged up a bit - which makes it difficult to tell when some letters have rounded end bits on them. (I tried looking at the photo of the logo on the TARDIS interior entrance doors, but that one was too small to be of any use; as I enlarged it for a better look, it quickly pixelated and then every letter started having round ends.) So I used a mix of the closest fonts I could find and did a little "touching up" to tweak some of the letters to better match their on-screen counterparts.

You might also notice that the lettering is a little... "off-center"?.. when it comes to the curve around the circle. That's how the alignment appears in the photo of the logo, even on the small photo of the doors to the interior set, so that's how I went with it.

That leaves the Capaldi box Series 8 version of the logo:

Looking closely at the photo of this version above, although it now appears to be a sticker (seen by the "8 o'clock" edge peeling back from the door a bit) rather than being hand-painted on, it looks like they used the same basic graphics as on the Series 7b logo (same lettering, placement, same inner part with the animals, etc.).

What they appear to have added is that extra, thin white circle between the edge of the inner black disc and the arrowheads, leaving that thin black circle between the lettering and the thin white circle, and returning the center black disc to its former, smaller size. (And it looks like the arrowheads haven't changed in all of the variations, which is a good thing.) You'll note I've referred to this one as the "Capaldi box Series 8 version"; this is because there is every possibility that someone might change it for Series 9. (You know those TARDISes - and props people; they love to change things! Okay, so I'm paraphrasing another character from different SF TV/film series, but at least he, too, was a doctor!)

So this should have us all caught up on the St. John Ambulance logo for the Series 5 onwards boxes. Save the graphics (they're JPGs), and resize them to about 5 inches in diameter. (I think that's what I read the original Hartnell logo was, so since Hartnell's early Brachacki is my favorite box, that's the size I cling to.) Once they're resized see how they look compared to the ones on screen and let me know what needs some tweaking. (Hopefully I've got it right first time, but I doubt it.)

Now to the Smith/Capaldi box builders; figure out a way to make the St. John logo panel interchangeable (like an interchangeable phone panel for a Classic TARDIS) so you can display your box as a Series 5, 6-7a, 7b, or 8 - whatever suits your (or your TARDIS's) mood, or the Doctor you may dress as while attending a Convention by simply changing that Logo Panel. My brain is officially drained... for now.

Dino.

EDIT: 2nd June 2014; I finished re-watching "The Time of the Doctor" and just noticed that the St. John logo, at least near the end of the episode when Clara enters the TARDIS just before the Doctor regenerates, is the logo used on the Capaldi Series 8 box. So this one is a crossover logo. Just thought I'd update with that info. (I know others have probably noticed that already, but I just noticed it. So? I'm slow on the uptake. )

[torran]

Does anyone know what the diameter of the logo tends to be on the Smith TARDIS? (Specifically 7B)