Lewisham High Street Box

[petewilson]

I don't think this Photo has been posted on here yet and I can't see it in the Met Box List!

R38 Beresford Square, Woolwich (1950)

(EDIT: This box has since been identified as being at a different location.)

[hb88banzai]

My first response was "finally, somebody's found a photo of this one" (I had looked long ago), but then I remembered - R38 is supposed to be a Post!

In fact, it was listed as one of the three Posts that didn't fit the history in that the Met Posts weren't even designed until 1937 yet these three were installed in 1934 according to the Met List (R38, R39, R40), meaning they would have to either be the PA1 type the Met supposedly didn't like or the City of London type (or perhaps some previously unknown prototype design similar to the wooden thing in the Hendon museum).

Now we have a photo of this "Post" and it turns out to be a Box, at least as of 1950. If there was a replacement at some point, this is not reflected in the Met List either.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[hb88banzai]

In looking at photos of Beresford Square and the history of the surrounding topography, it looks like this Box is not actually anywhere in of adjacent to the actual Square, so is not R38. In looking up the original photo source, it merely lists it as "route 72 tram heading to Beresford Sq."

The buildings in the photo don't seem to match those actually in or around the Square. A couple are kind of reminiscent of those in the Square (eg, the Chapel building in the photo), but not when you look in detail, and most especially not as things looked then. Note that the area has changed tremendously as the whole road system was revised with the widening and rerouting of the A206 some time after 1971.

With all the changes taken into account, the actual location per the Met List would be just about at the left end of the extant left wing extension of the Royal Arsenal main gate (now with the A206 running behind it, while up until after the Post was removed the roadway ran in front) --



Note that the gap between the Gatehouse and the little chapel like building on the left is essentially looking down the old connection between Warren Lane and Beresford Street, which ran in front of the Gate. At the position of the chapel like building was the forecourt entrance to a rather immense church (Holy Trinity Church), much larger and more ornate than the one in the original photo, and in the wrong position.

Unfortunately, all the photos of this area I've been able to find in the relevant time periods either show mostly the center and right wing and/or have vehicles or market stalls in the way of a view of where the Post should bee. Regardless, from the position I would tend to believe it would be a Post and not a Box - the the Met list is likely correct here. I would still like to get a good late 30s shot of that Post to see what kind it was.

Here's an example of what I mean:

1963 --



1964 --



EDIT:  Here's an aerial view of the area, circa 1925 (noting that not much had changed by the 1945 Google Earth views) --



A blowup of the area around the Square (Royal Arsenal Gates on the right) --

[lorisarvendu]

There's mention of the 72 route here:

http://www.yellins.co.uk/transporthistory/trolley/woolwichtb-t.html

"The last tram route built was from Well Hall down the new Westhorn Avenue to as far as the railway, and when the railway bridge was completed on to Eltham Road.  The new route was the 72 introduced in June 1932."

I don't know that area of London at all, but Google Maps directions shows a pretty straight route from Well Hall Road to Beresford Square.  Does someone with a bit of time fancy following the route on Street View?  I'd love to, but I'm sneaking this post out from work!

[Dalekoracle]

The actual title of the photo posted is:

"n06_3_3.  Route 72 tram heading to Beresford Sq.  Photographed on  1950-07-07"  - its on this page about half way down: http://dewi.ca/trains/london/trams.html


The photo itself isn't Beresford Square.

My guess is that will be at some point along the route.

But knowing Woolwich, I don't think thats Beresford Square in that photo.

Mark

[lorisarvendu]

It's on bus routes 36 and 47, if that's of any help to anyone.  Plus the building at the back seems to have the word "WHERE..." written on it.

[Dalekoracle]

the old 72 tram used to link Woolwich with the Victoria Embankment (so says a site i have been looking at)

If we look at bus routes, the 47 route runs: Bellingham - Catford - Lewisham - Surrey Quays - London Bridge - Shoreditch - so thats south london (rather than South East) up into the Eastend. (north of the river)

The 36 is even longer and more convoluted, running: New Cross Gate, Bus Garage - Peckham, High Street  -Camberwell Green   - Oval Station - Vauxhall Station - Victoria Station, Wilton Road  - Hyde Park Corner, Grosvenor Place - Marble Arch, Park Lane  - Paddington Station  - Royal Oak Station  -Harrow Road, Prince of Wales - Queens Park Station  


Have a look at the old tram route for the 72... http://www.tundria.com/trams/GBR/London-1940.shtml - its the 4th map down.

I would suggest that we need to look at Catford / Lewisham / Peckham areas. If anyone has the time to plot the three routes onto one map, I'd say you'd have a good chance of pinpointing the location of that box.

Mark

[hb88banzai]

That same site lists this for the route of 72 --

72    Victoria Embankment (Savoy Street) - Westminster Bridge - Kennington - Camberwell - Peckham - New Cross - Lewisham - Eltham - Woolwich

I've already checked between Woolwich and Eltham (actually as far as Lee). From the Lee area, it looks like it continued up the A20 to the A2 to the A202 as far as Kennington. From there it goes on up to Westminster Bridge and up the Victoria Embankment to just short of Waterloo Bridge.

[Dalekoracle]

Looking at the routes, I'd say the search area should centre on New Cross and up to Kennington.

[hb88banzai]

Think I may have found it --



URL:  http://maps.google.com/maps?q=loampit+vale,+London,+UK&hl=en&ll=51.464261,-0.01133&spn=0.003543,0.020363&sll=51.465117,-0.010777&sspn=0.001965,0.005091&hnear=Loampit+Vale,+London,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.464189,-0.011193&panoid=qYPDSVnsT3sRRViavXvxbQ&cbp=12,113.89,,0,-1.42

Looks like the same church (hard to judge scale) - problem is the rest of the area is very different due to the construction of a large roundabout just to the north with alterations to all the road paths, sizes, etc. The right side buildings are all gone and the road (Lewisham Road) that traveled in front of the church on the left of the original photo has been rerouted to the roundabout.

Bigger problem is that if this is it, I can't seem to find it in the Met List. Should be listed as on Lewisham High Street, or failing that Lee High Road. The cross street at the Box Site would be St. Stephens Grove. None of these street names lead to a Box at this spot, and a quick run through R Division in the list didn't ring any bells.

If you go down St. Stephens Grove on Google Street View you will see a row of connected cottages/buildings just like the ones in the original photo. Building on the corner is currently the Lewisham Police Station.

Street view of the St. Stephens Grove buildings --

[hb88banzai]

Confirmation!

The Box on Lewisham High Street - Box Number ?

Aerial photo from circa 1955 --



Blowup --



You can make out the cross on the end wall of the church just above the rose, and you can see the Box in front of St. Stephens Grove on the end of the broad sidewalk that runs in front of the parking area/road that wraps around the other building, and which also connects to St. Stephens Grove. Building looks to be the same with the same connection to the previously described row of cottages along St. Stephens.

All seems to check out. So where is it in the Met List?

EDIT:  I believe this would put it in P Division, but it is nowhere to be found. More circumstantial evidence that the missing 11 numbers in P Division in the Met List were indeed for Boxes and not Police Stations or A.R.W. Sirens (or just skipped).

[hb88banzai]

With the missing P Division entries provided by plumbly7, this Box can now be identified as P44.

A blowup of the Box in the original photo (1950) --



View of the Box Site --



Box Site Street View URL:  http://maps.google.com/maps?q=loampit+vale,+London,+UK&hl=en&ll=51.4638,-0.010868&spn=0.001704,0.008465&sll=51.465117,-0.010777&sspn=0.001965,0.005091&hnear=Loampit+Vale,+London,+United+Kingdom&t=m&layer=c&cbll=51.463797,-0.010873&panoid=LE4e-MZ2m6XfkV3uQKO8JQ&cbp=12,50.21,,0,-3.03&z=17

[peterjohn]

I've now finished removing all the crap photos from my Flickr and two left to upload (All the others were already on here!)
Here's P44 during the floods of 1968...Honestly..Left hand side behind the Traffic Light!