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Tony's Console Room Measurements

Started by tony farrell, Sep 02, 2012, 09:26 am

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tony farrell

Hopefully this screen grab will clarify matters:

myphoto (46).png

So, just like the main (91" wide) dividing screens which are made up from a Perspex sheet 'sandwiched' between two identical metal frames, the sides of the Scanner support are made from a Perspex sheets sandwiched between an outer metal frame and the inner frame.

Also, as promised a more detailed drawing of the Fault Locator panels.

fault locator detailing with measurements.png

Tony

tony farrell

Dec 09, 2012, 02:41 pm #196 Last Edit: Dec 09, 2012, 02:45 pm by Tony Farrell
Thanks Crispin, I've spent nearly four months on this topic - along with more time beforehand - so I know what a labour of love this forum is!

Before I return to the topic proper, I would just make one observation as to why I'm glad that the measurements I've presented haven't been (and shouldn't be) separated from a brief discussion of the materials/build techniques used. Let's briefly discuss timber sizes: In the UK all timber sizes are nominal and there is a big difference between 'sawn' and 'planed' timber. If you ask for 25mm square sawn timber you will get a piece of wood which is 25 millimeters by 25 millimeters. If you ask for a piece 25mm square of planed timber by contrast, what you'll get is a piece of timber which is 22mm by 22mm! This is further complicated by the fact that wood is hygroscopic - will absorb moisture - and further tolerances in measurements are 'enshrined' in the various standards to allow for this (usually, but not limited to 3%).

What something is made from can therefore make a difference to the size it can be made into. Perhaps this is why the finished sizes of the Tardis' walls ended up being smaller than the plans posted by Rob49152....

Which comment brings me neatly back on course  :)

Before moving on to the computer towers and 'octagon' I'd like to cover the photographic roundelled walls. I think it's fair to say that most people would assume that the photographic roundels are the same size as (or fractionally smaller than) the physical ones. These photos would seem to back that up:


d1-1a-041.jpgImage3-3.jpgTARDISInterior1.jpg

As far as I'm aware, the penultimate time the photographic walls appeared was in "Colony in Space". In these screen grabs from that story, we can see the photographic wall directly joined to the solid one. (To help judge the size, I've drawn lines where the two walls meet.)

colony in space.jpgmyphoto (58).png


From these, it is clear that (unlike the solid walls) there is no gap between each of the photographic roundels. Whatever was photographed, the circular holes appear to join each other by means of a curved edge.

In addition, it is clear that far from being smaller than their physical counter-parts, the photographic roundels are actually larger. This is particularly clear in the photo of Jon Pertwee. As near as I can judge, the photographic roundels are 25.5" in 'diameter' (they aren't actually circular as whatever was photographed was actually photo'ed from a slight angle rather than 'square on').

I posted this picture before, but it serves to illustrate my point here.

 R-4_top_10.jpg

Tony

tony farrell

For any attempt at measuring the original control room set to work/be accurate, we need to know how many photographic roundels were used. These photos can be of help:

8.JPGmyphoto (11).jpgd1-1a-080.jpgd1-1a-080.jpgauc3 - Copy - Copy.jpg

tony farrell

Dec 09, 2012, 03:24 pm #198 Last Edit: Dec 09, 2012, 03:45 pm by Tony Farrell
This photograph is confusing - though obscured by the 'computer tower' it is possible to work out that the roundels do not align.

myphoto (11).jpg

This is what I think is happening:

d1-1a-120.jpg

There appears to be a join in the photographic walls which is obscured by the computer tower. Coupled with the other photos, it would therefore appear that there were two photographic walls which consisted of five and a quarter columns of roundels and that these two 'walls' were separated by a narrower 'wall' consisting of three roundels. Each separate wall seems to be joined to the next by a six inch wide upright strip.

If my maths is correct, this makes each 'five columned' section 150" wide and the three columned 'wall' 67" wide. This gives the overall length of the photographic walls as 367". As to their height, this is fairly straight forward as we can clearly see how tall each of the photographic walls were from this picture:


The_Chase.jpg

This puts the height of each photographic wall as 140"

What do we all think?

Tony

galacticprobe

Dec 09, 2012, 03:43 pm #199 Last Edit: Dec 09, 2012, 03:53 pm by galacticprobe
Quote from: markofrani on Dec 09, 2012, 09:37 am
Hi Tony, Is this the picture you're after?
pod.jpg


I think you're quite right, Tony, especially when you look closely and notice that those are the photo blow-up walls; I think if those were the 3-D built walls the roundels would align. As in markofrani's post in the other thread (quoted here), you can see that there are other places where the roundels on those photo blow-up walls don't align.

At least in your photo with the drawn-in roundels it looks like they are somewhat "alignable" with the rest of the ones along that wall. In the quoted photo above, those roundels' alignment is way off where they come together at that wall "spacer".

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

warmcanofcoke

Dec 10, 2012, 03:33 pm #200 Last Edit: Dec 10, 2012, 03:46 pm by warmcanofcoke
A thought occurs .... (I've tried to go through and faithfully scan through all the previous pages in this thread but I didn't think this was brought up before.) The Photographic Walls - Are slightly smaller that the actual roundels.
The_Chase.jpg

it looks to me the actual walls are four and a half roundels high, the same space on the Photographic Wall spans five roundels. So the photo is Slightly smaller. Oddly the roundels are closer together on the photographic print it appears ... so how large are the photographic roundels? and were the photographic walls based on a different model(perhaps it was a photograph of a studio miniature)? The Actual walls I've seen have been no more than 4 1/2 x 6 roundels and the photographic print is more like 6 x 5 1/4 roundels. It could be, I suppose that someone in the photographic lab took one picture of one of the roundels and using burn and dodge techniques invented a repeat pattern on photographic paper?. ... What do you guys think?
why doesn't the Guide mention them? - Oh, it's not very accurate.
Oh? - I'm researching the new edition.

galacticprobe

Dec 10, 2012, 03:53 pm #201 Last Edit: Dec 10, 2012, 04:00 pm by galacticprobe
Someone (I forget who, but it was one of our members) suggested that those photographic walls were made from a photo taken of a piece of that perforated metal panel - like the ones used on the 9th/10th Doctor console telephone and compass panels - and had that blown up to make the walls. When you get a close look at one of those walls you can almost see the "curve" of the metal where the holes would have been punched out. So that's one plausible explanation for why those walls look so different.

I tried searching for that post, but there are just too many hits for several combinations of "photographic", " enlargement", "Hartnell", "walls"... Maybe the member who originally suggested this theory could chime in and give a link to that original post (or re-post the photos here so we don't have to keep switching pages to compare roundels and walls)?

Dino.
"What's wrong with being childish?! I like being childish." -3rd Doctor, "Terror of the Autons"

tony farrell

Thanks Nate (I may call you Nate?), you make an interesting observation - the roundels here do appear to be smaller than the ones used in "Colony in Space".

I remember someone mentioned here on TB that the photographic walls may have been reprinted sometime around 1966 (sorry, can't find the quote at the moment). That might make sense given the damage evident in my previous screen grab - indeed, if you look at the top left corner in the picture from "The Chase", that damage is evident here as well (the same wall is now upside down).

I won't be able to do this tonight, but I'll 'toddle off' and do some measuring of screen grabs from the early stories and the later ones to see if I can 'pin down' when the measurements changed.

When I've done that, I revise my measurements for the photographic walls accordingly.

Tony

tony farrell

Quote from: galacticprobe on Dec 10, 2012, 03:53 pm
Someone (I forget who, but it was one of our members) suggested that those photographic walls were made from a photo taken of a piece of that perforated metal panel
Dino.


Thanks Dino - I too remember that post but can't find it either.

My understanding is that Peter Brachaki used this metal panel (or whatever it was) as part of his scale model before the set-design was commissioned. (There was a similar model of the Eccleston console on display at the Dr Who Exhibition.) A photograph of this (whatever it was) was then used for the full-scale photographic walls. If you look at the Pilot  Episode, the wall that ultimately became the Fault Locator in the series proper, was also a photographic 'blow-up' of fluorescent tubes and Edison Screw lamps laid on a similar 'roundelled' background.

So, whatever Brachaki used, certainly inspired his over all design.

Tony

Rassilons Rod

I haven't yet got as far as I'd hoped... Other stuff going on too, you know how it is :)

Anyway... I just wanted to show this...

You might want to check either the measurements or the positioning.

For example, in the middle panel of the fault locator. The middle screen seems to be 13" high (including the 5" below it) as is the metal plate on the right... however the screen in your diagram looks to be placed a little lower than that.

2012-12-10-2-FaultLocator.jpeg
In the cities in the streets there's a tension you can feel,
The breaking strain is fast approaching, guns and riots.
Politicians gamble and lie to save their skins,
And the press get fed the scapegoats,
Public Enema Number One.

tony farrell

Unfortunately I have to work so will study what you mean later. In the meantime Marc can I just say this is stunning. A huge thank you!
Tony

warmcanofcoke

Quote from: Tony Farrell on Dec 10, 2012, 04:04 pm
Thanks Nate (I may call you Nate?)
Tony


Of course you may  ;)

auc3 - Copy - Copy.jpg
I never noticed the hex pattern on the floor of the console control room before. But I did see it in your technical drawings. :D
why doesn't the Guide mention them? - Oh, it's not very accurate.
Oh? - I'm researching the new edition.

tony farrell

Quote from: rassilonsrod on Dec 10, 2012, 06:13 pm
You might want to check either the measurements or the positioning.

For example, in the middle panel of the fault locator. The middle screen seems to be 13" high (including the 5" below it) as is the metal plate on the right... however the screen in your diagram looks to be placed a little lower than that.



I see where you're coming from... The panels with the lights are 13" tall; their bottom is 1" above the sill, so, their tops are 14" from the sill. I've amended my drawing to clarify.

fault locator detailing with measurements.png

Tony

tony farrell

Dec 11, 2012, 05:49 am #208 Last Edit: Dec 18, 2012, 08:41 am by Tony Farrell
Quote from: warmcanofcoke on Dec 10, 2012, 07:11 pm


I never noticed the hex pattern on the floor of the console control room before. But I did see it in your technical drawings. :D


Hi Nate - the floor plate is crucial to my figures (see pages 8 to 10 of this thread). Your comment as well as the need for clarity have prompted me to summarise this thread so far:

The measurements in this thread are derived from three (no, make that four) basic premises. In reverse order -

An understanding of the "mind-set" of the time - in essence what looks 'right' in imperial measurements. Over ten years in the DIY trade means that you get to know what is and isn't readily available and what has to be custom made.

Let's face it, most of the Tardis set is going to be constructed on a basic wooden frame - you therefore base your original 'thinking' on what is available. For timber (lumber) the same standards have - in essence - been in force since 1924/5. These things really haven't changed that much here in the UK; all we've done is taken the 'old' imperial measurement and converted it to the nearest metric equivalent. The same thing applies to the metal frames of the dividing screens - for 1" read 25mm. If anyone has seen the BBC political comedies 'Yes Minister' or 'Yes Prime Minister', they will understand the British capacity for a gigantic fudge! I know, I speak as one!!

Secondly (that should probably be thirdly  ;) ), the diameter of the physical roundels as built in relationship to the gaps in between them is a ratio of 400 to 30. Whatever the diameter of the roundel, the distance between them is 30/400ths of that diameter (see the Main Tardis Doors thread).

Thirdly (secondly??  :-\ ), the height of the Brachaki Police Box's doors has been established at 78". The Police Box prop has a 3" base and is mounted on casters so, add 3.5" and you arrive at the height of the Police Box doors from the studio floor as 81.5". We have photographic evidence of the original Police Box prop stood immediately in front of the original Tardis' main internal doors (from The Time Monster), so, we know the height of the internal door frame is the same i.e., 81.5". The Tardis' main internal doors are actually three inches shorter with the gap - at the bottom of the doors - being hidden behind a skirting or wainscoting. Three roundels roundels have to fit into this shorter door height at the stated ratio, therefore the roundels are (as near as damn it) 24" in diameter. Because of the ratio, they cannot be anything else or the height of the Police Box doors is wrong! By comparing everything else with the height of the Tardis' main internal doors, we can work out the heights of everything else.

Fourthly (firstly? lastly? "that little 'iv' thing you get in the margin" ;D ), comes the floor plate. Once you know the diameter of this hexagon, you can extrapolate the widths of the other elements of the set, principally those of the Scanner/Down-lighter assembly and Fault Locator Wall - see pages 10 to 13 of this thread.

We now know the heights and widths of the principal elements of the original Control Room set. It's taken me more than four months (probably nearer to six) with a lot of people's help to get to this stage, but I think we are now so, so near to Brachaki's original ....  

Thanks to everyone but special thanks to Marc for his renders of my measurements!064time022-1.jpg

Rassilons Rod

Dec 11, 2012, 09:30 am #209 Last Edit: Dec 11, 2012, 09:51 am by rassilonsrod
Thanks Tony, that update clarifies a lot :)

I've also made two further assumptions (both fixable if need be).

On the middle panel again, the small hole is assumed to be the same size as the other small holes (3.5" x 5.25")

And it is centred in the middle of the area it is in (14"2) which puts it 7" right and up from the bottom left corner.

Hope that matches your thinking :)
In the cities in the streets there's a tension you can feel,
The breaking strain is fast approaching, guns and riots.
Politicians gamble and lie to save their skins,
And the press get fed the scapegoats,
Public Enema Number One.