Making Season 14 Roundels

[doctor varney]

Oops!  Timeslip!  Sorry - yes, I think I read about all that on your site, Relative Dimensions... (very impressive by the way!) I just saw this and assumed you'd recently decided to do away with the VF roundels and go with GRP.

Actually, on reflection, I think GRP would have been the fastest route for the BBC to take back then.  Something the props dept. would have been used to using - but I would have thought that had they access to vacuum forming apparatus back then, I'm sure they would have gone with it (and it seems they have done with the new series build).

GRP is a little unpredictable in it's unpigmented state and to be honest, I think acetate is a more reliable way of maintaining neutral translucency (at least, with the white, futuristic looks of the 70s & 80s).  So what you've got there is probably more advanced, even if it isn't exactly authentic to the show.

And yes - it's something I'd love to have a go at some day.  Except... living in a small terraced house doesn't afford me the space to build me a full scale TARDIS interior just yet!

[superrichi1a]

Sorry to interject this several years to late but:
I believe vacuum forming is much easier for something like roundels rather than fibreglassing. Vacuum forming is just easier to understand, harder to do, I might add, but easier to understand. What would concern me about fibreglassing is how long it would take. In Crispins vid, I loved the way he was just putting the plastic in the box, torturing it by first metling it and then giving it a squirt with the hose, and then simply dropping it in a pile and carrying on. Could all easily be done in a day (with a lot of patience).
Fibreglassing would probably make some stronger, more durable roundels, but it would take too long. Pouring it into the mould, waiting for it to dry, peeling off the mould, sanding and finishing. Not too bad for one piece, but when faced with over 100 roundels you're going to get a bit bored lol

This Christmas I may try to make some roundels, just for decoration on my study wall. It's something I've been wanting to do in a while

[Scarfwearer]

There's certainly a tradeoff. Fibreglass roundels will look a lot better as they have better detail. The vacuum formed ones I made are actually not very detailed close up and don't match the texture and colour of the originals either. Having said that it is indeed a lot quicker. I think I actually spread making them over several days, but doing fibreglass ones would take a lot longer than that, though they may have used several moulds so they could do them in parallel...

Crispin

[doctor varney]

Oh yes, glass fibre is definitely not the fastest method.  Certainly it's not cheap, either.  The materials are, but the labour isn't.  Then there's the setting time between pulls.   In the trade, it can pay reasonably good money if you are a good laminator, but that also depends where you work.

If I were doing roundels, it's how I'd do it, only because I'm experienced with the stuff.  I've done my fair share of duds when I was learning.

It would take longer if you used a gelcoat.  For something like this, I wouldn't bother... and probably use several layers of tissue as opposed to one of the heavier mats.  That way I could probably get them more transparent.

And yes - it would make a lot of sense for a props department to do a four-up mould or even maybe a 6-up for the amount of pulls they'd need.  Done as a sheet, they would then separate them with a bandsaw.  Doing it at home could take a few weeks, depending on how much spare time you have to work on them.

[Rassilons Rod]

I dunno, I was thinking 4 or 8, that way they could do a whole wall and get all the halves done at the same time... I would love to try that.

The only thing that puzzles me at the moment is, on the half ones... Does the detail on the rim also go along the straight edge? And if so, how easy would it be to mould that?

[galacticprobe]

Vacuum forming may not have as much detail as other methods (depending on your mould), but it could be authentic (possibly) depending on the look you want for your console room walls. A close look at some of the Hartnell console room roundels (actual, not the photographic enlargements) especially on the back side of the main TARDIS doors when they're open, look like they could easily have been vacu-formed. Like in this console room scene:

[attach width=720 height=540]225[/attach]

Or in this shot from the Pilot where Barbara forces her way into the TARDIS:

There is very little detail in those roundels, and they look like they could easily be vacu-formed. (Actually, they look a lot like white plastic serving platters. So for simple roundels maybe a stop by a party food serving type place would be in order? Or am I being too simple? And be nice when answering that last question!)

Then, of course, they turned into "flat" recessed roundels during the Troughton/Pertwee era:

when simple sheets of frosted plexi/perspex could have been used for the backing of the roundel panels. (Let's not even get into the Pertwee story "The Time Monster" where they turned into washing up bowls with lights in their centers. Ick.)

The roundels seemed to pick up their greater detailing in the later Tom Baker stories, and vacu-formung them would require a precise mould with fine details. So I guess it's a matter of preference (and money) as to which version one would like to create. I've never done vacu-forming and I don't have the room or equipment to do it, nor do I have the lathe or other method to turn out a form for a later Baker/Davison onward roundel, which would also serve well for the Season 14 wooden console room. So I've got two options: the flat Troughton/early Pertwee type, or seek out those large plastic serving platters for the Hartnell type. (And for me the point is moot anyhow; I don't have a room in which to make walls like that.)

I just thought I'd throw out my views on the different roundel types and different ways of creating them.

Dino.

[DoctorWho8]

The only thing that puzzles me at the moment is, on the half ones... Does the detail on the rim also go along the straight edge? And if so, how easy would it be to mould that?

I thought that would be simple.  They cut whole roundels in half.   Why mould half ones when it's easier to cut whole ones in half?
Bill "the Doctor" Rudloff

[Rassilons Rod]

True, but if I ever do it I think I'd like to extend the detailing. I think it would look nice... Didn't Teletran do it like that on his 3D room?

[Teletran]

I tried but it didn't work very well, the detailed edge is quite thick so when you apply the extra edge it looks wrong.

[Rassilons Rod]

Ah I see what you mean...

[Teletran]

I present for your consideration the half roundel sampler pack!

[Rassilons Rod]

The last one is really nice. I think it really works in itself. That said I'm not sure it would work in combination with the normal ones.

Perhaps it would work if the full roundels were composed of two of those, not touching but suggesting a full circle.

Just my opinion. Nice work as usual Teletran

-Marc

[Teletran]

That one's actually a half and a bit roundel so I don't know if that would work.

I had to dust of the old roundel machine to make the frame for my new scanner screen so I thought I'd try a few new variations since you got me thinking about it again but for the time being I think I'll stick to the classic half roundel.

[hallam]

Vacuum forming may not have as much detail as other methods (depending on your mould), but it could be authentic (possibly) depending on the look you want for your console room walls. A close look at some of the Hartnell console room roundels (actual, not the photographic enlargements) especially on the back side of the main TARDIS doors when they're open, look like they could easily have been vacu-formed. Like in this console room scene:

They could have been, but it is highly unlikely.

Vacuforming was not a commonplace technique at the time, certainly not in the UK. There was a company that used it to make prop armor for Broadway shows, but it was pretty much kept as a trade secret. It had to be rediscovered to make the armor for the Stormtroopers in Star Wars.

Lucas had originally expected to make his stormtrooper armour in fiberglass. It was only after they discovered a guy who was making vacu-formed panels for race cars that they suddenly realized they could go a completely different route.

The Hartnell roundels were almost certainly fiberglass made by Shawcraft inc, the GRP specialists who made the daleks.

For a build of that size they might well have made the first roundel as a plug and used that to make a series of moulds.

[meantimebob]

I'm not so sure the Hartnell roundels were fibre glass. Several of them are clearly dented, which GRP (being rigid) simply doesn't do - but vac formed plastic does. In fact the BBC simply must have had vac form facilities in the scenic dept because all the "wooden" panelling in the 1971 series Elizabeth R is clearly made of vac forms.